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Post by sdsuball on Feb 13, 2024 20:18:47 GMT -8
Okay but the conflict in Gaza has been going since October. The military funding bill in the Senate, that gives 14B to Israel to blow up more houses (Israel has already blown up 70% PERCENT of the homes and apartment buildings in Gaza), 14B to shoot more mothers and children in the street. That bill passed 70-29 in the Senate today. 70 congressmen today voted for genocide. Only 3 Democrats voted against the bill - Peter Welch, Bernie Sanders, and Jeff Merkley. I understand not blaming Biden and our congressmen for what Israel has done with aid money that we promised them before they started killing civilians. We have been (by far) the largest financial supporter of Israel since Israel's creation after WWII. But those senators voted for genocide - today. If Biden signs that bill into law, that's signing genocide into law. Unequivocally, there is no other way to view it. Intentionally starving the Palestinian people by denying them international aid is inhumane and immoral. The Democratic party needs a wakeup call. Right now we are Italy and Israel is Axis Germany in WWII. What do you think Israel is going to do with the Palestinians? We are what, a few months away from concentration camps? Israel is eager to develop the rest of Gaza to complete their colonization of the Gaza strip. They will have to put the Palestinians somewhere. 70% of their homes have been destroyed... You could make this same exact argument, except replace the word "Israel" with "Ukraine" and "Democrat" with "Republican." I don't follow. Russia is not committing genocide. Russia has done some screwed up stuff, like kidnapping Ukranian children and putting them into camps in Russia to brainwash them and make them Russian citizens. But that's not even on the same level as what Israel has done to the Palestinian people. Russia isn't shooting and killing civilians. Russia has allowed international aid to enter Ukraine, with the exception of a week or so in the middle of a Russian siege on a Ukrainian (don't remember the name of the city). Russia didn't indiscriminately bomb 70% of the houses and apartments in the cities that they took. So sorry, but I really don't buy the comparison. Russia is mostly playing by the international rules of law. Israel mostly is not.
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Post by uwphoto on Feb 13, 2024 20:44:29 GMT -8
You could make this same exact argument, except replace the word "Israel" with "Ukraine" and "Democrat" with "Republican." I don't follow. Russia is not committing genocide. Russia has done some screwed up stuff, like kidnapping Ukranian children and putting them into camps in Russia to brainwash them and make them Russian citizens. But that's not even on the same level as what Israel has done to the Palestinian people. Russia isn't shooting and killing civilians. Russia has allowed international aid to enter Ukraine, with the exception of a week or so in the middle of a Russian siege on a Ukrainian (don't remember the name of the city). Russia didn't indiscriminately bomb 70% of the houses and apartments in the cities that they took. So sorry, but I really don't buy the comparison. Russia is mostly playing by the international rules of law. Israel mostly is not. uh...thats bull$#!+ re: Russia. "playing by international rules"...they have killed tons of citizens. You apparently don't know Russia very well. trump and others would let Russia walk right in. Do you know what they did in Berlin at the end of the war? The US has never done anything close.
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 13, 2024 20:57:12 GMT -8
You could make this same exact argument, except replace the word "Israel" with "Ukraine" and "Democrat" with "Republican." I don't follow. Russia is not committing genocide. Russia has done some screwed up stuff, like kidnapping Ukranian children and putting them into camps in Russia to brainwash them and make them Russian citizens. But that's not even on the same level as what Israel has done to the Palestinian people. Russia isn't shooting and killing civilians. Russia has allowed international aid to enter Ukraine, with the exception of a week or so in the middle of a Russian siege on a Ukrainian (don't remember the name of the city). Russia didn't indiscriminately bomb 70% of the houses and apartments in the cities that they took. So sorry, but I really don't buy the comparison. Russia is mostly playing by the international rules of law. Israel mostly is not. Completely erroneous. Russia bombed playgrounds in Ukraine. Russia bombed subway shelters in Ukraine. Russia bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine REPEATEDLY. Russia bombed supermarkets in Ukraine. They've targeted civilian infrastructure over and over again. There's very, very little difference, outside of root ideology and religion.
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Post by uwphoto on Feb 14, 2024 6:56:36 GMT -8
I don't follow. Russia is not committing genocide. Russia has done some screwed up stuff, like kidnapping Ukranian children and putting them into camps in Russia to brainwash them and make them Russian citizens. But that's not even on the same level as what Israel has done to the Palestinian people. Russia isn't shooting and killing civilians. Russia has allowed international aid to enter Ukraine, with the exception of a week or so in the middle of a Russian siege on a Ukrainian (don't remember the name of the city). Russia didn't indiscriminately bomb 70% of the houses and apartments in the cities that they took. So sorry, but I really don't buy the comparison. Russia is mostly playing by the international rules of law. Israel mostly is not. Completely erroneous. Russia bombed playgrounds in Ukraine. Russia bombed subway shelters in Ukraine. Russia bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine REPEATEDLY. Russia bombed supermarkets in Ukraine. They've targeted civilian infrastructure over and over again. There's very, very little difference, outside of root ideology and religion. that particular statement by sdsuball is as close to "bot speak" or tiktok madness as you can get. Frightening actually. putin or trump couldn't have said it better.
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Feb 14, 2024 9:13:58 GMT -8
I doubt they vote for a racist...a racist party...who support apartheid/genocide...they just ain't gonna vote...they ain't saving America from itself again...they were promised last election if they did...that Joe would have their backs...what happened?...NO George Floyd Bill...NO student loan bill...NO voting rights...NO realization of campaign promises...so...NO Black enthusiasm...they ain't getting anything out of their time, money and effort...there's the reality of that...so this go round...it's a white people's election...who white people want to lead this nation...who white people decide America's image/reputation to be...won't be able to say it's Black people/minority's fault.... Biden did try to forgive up to $20,000 in student loans by executive order. It was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Biden did make Juneteenth a federal holiday. The Inflation Reduction Act provided a $738B investment into climate change, and lowers pharmaceutical drug prices. What would a George Floyd bill looked like? What would a voting rights bill looked like? Look, I'm not on the Biden train because of Gaza, and because he should only be a one-term president (like he promised). But he still has done some good things while in office, like those things that I've highlighted. H.R.1280 - George Floyd Justice in Policing Act of 2021"This bill addresses a wide range of policies and issues regarding policing practices and law enforcement accountability. It increases accountability for law enforcement misconduct, restricts the use of certain policing practices, enhances transparency and data collection, and establishes best practices and training requirements." "It establishes a framework to prevent and remedy racial profiling by law enforcement at the federal, state, and local levels. It also limits the unnecessary use of force and restricts the use of no-knock warrants, chokeholds, and carotid holds. The bill creates a national registry—the National Police Misconduct Registry—to compile data on complaints and records of police misconduct. It also establishes new reporting requirements, including on the use of force, officer misconduct, and routine policing practices (e.g., stops and searches). Finally, it directs DOJ to create uniform accreditation standards for law enforcement agencies and requires law enforcement officers to complete training on racial profiling, implicit bias, and the duty to intervene when another officer uses excessive force." www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1280S.2747 - Freedom to Vote Act-117th Congress (2021-2022)"This bill addresses voter registration and voting access, election integrity and security, redistricting, and campaign finance." "Specifically, the bill expands voter registration (e.g., automatic and same-day registration) and voting access (e.g., vote-by-mail and early voting). It also limits removing voters from voter rolls." "The bill outlines criteria for congressional redistricting and generally prohibits mid-decade redistricting." www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2747Biden has accomplished some things for sure...but he didn't run in the Black community on climate change or to younger Blacks on lower drug prices...none of the aforementioned means squat if one cannot walk, drive, shop, etc. without being profiled/killed by police for no good reason other than...or being unable to choose those who represent your best interest...but I guess the day off is sweet...when your needs are not met...then one sees the administration allowing/supporting the same injustice by an oppressor...it creates this mindset: www.youtube.com/shorts/jKP1u5d_ubI?feature=share
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 14:41:28 GMT -8
Biden did try to forgive up to $20,000 in student loans by executive order. It was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Biden did make Juneteenth a federal holiday. The Inflation Reduction Act provided a $738B investment into climate change, and lowers pharmaceutical drug prices. What would a George Floyd bill looked like? What would a voting rights bill looked like? Look, I'm not on the Biden train because of Gaza, and because he should only be a one-term president (like he promised). But he still has done some good things while in office, like those things that I've highlighted. H.R.1280 - George Floyd Justice in Policing Act of 2021"This bill addresses a wide range of policies and issues regarding policing practices and law enforcement accountability. It increases accountability for law enforcement misconduct, restricts the use of certain policing practices, enhances transparency and data collection, and establishes best practices and training requirements." "It establishes a framework to prevent and remedy racial profiling by law enforcement at the federal, state, and local levels. It also limits the unnecessary use of force and restricts the use of no-knock warrants, chokeholds, and carotid holds. The bill creates a national registry—the National Police Misconduct Registry—to compile data on complaints and records of police misconduct. It also establishes new reporting requirements, including on the use of force, officer misconduct, and routine policing practices (e.g., stops and searches). Finally, it directs DOJ to create uniform accreditation standards for law enforcement agencies and requires law enforcement officers to complete training on racial profiling, implicit bias, and the duty to intervene when another officer uses excessive force." www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1280S.2747 - Freedom to Vote Act-117th Congress (2021-2022)"This bill addresses voter registration and voting access, election integrity and security, redistricting, and campaign finance." "Specifically, the bill expands voter registration (e.g., automatic and same-day registration) and voting access (e.g., vote-by-mail and early voting). It also limits removing voters from voter rolls." "The bill outlines criteria for congressional redistricting and generally prohibits mid-decade redistricting." www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2747--------------------------- Biden has accomplished some things for sure...but he didn't run in the Black community on climate change or to younger Blacks on lower drug prices...none of the aforementioned means squat if one cannot walk, drive, shop, etc. without being profiled/killed by police For sure, I hear that on personal safety and profiling. Got to feel safe and secure before you can be future thinking with things like climate change. Interesting that the George Floyd bill passed in the House but not in the Senate. Doesn't surprise me in the sense that all it takes is 1 Democrat not supporting a bill for it to fail, with the Democrats only having 50 votes. I know that frustrated me on a number of bills during the Biden presidency, there was a climate change bill that was killed by Manchin, the West Virginia "Democrat" who's really more of a middle of the fence guy. I don't know how much of the George Floyd bill failure you can put on Biden. I think that they tried to water down the House bill but were unsuccessful in doing so. With the Freedom to Vote Act, unfortunately it was introduced in 2023 with the Republicans controlling the House, so it has no chance of passing. I wonder if Biden could take executive action on police brutality or freedom to vote issues? Certainly would like to see more action taken on these issues.
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 14:50:45 GMT -8
I don't follow. Russia is not committing genocide. Russia has done some screwed up stuff, like kidnapping Ukranian children and putting them into camps in Russia to brainwash them and make them Russian citizens. But that's not even on the same level as what Israel has done to the Palestinian people. Russia isn't shooting and killing civilians. Russia has allowed international aid to enter Ukraine, with the exception of a week or so in the middle of a Russian siege on a Ukrainian (don't remember the name of the city). Russia didn't indiscriminately bomb 70% of the houses and apartments in the cities that they took. So sorry, but I really don't buy the comparison. Russia is mostly playing by the international rules of law. Israel mostly is not. Completely erroneous. Russia bombed playgrounds in Ukraine. Russia bombed subway shelters in Ukraine. Russia bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine REPEATEDLY. Russia bombed supermarkets in Ukraine. They've targeted civilian infrastructure over and over again. There's very, very little difference, outside of root ideology and religion. I'm sorry, did Russia destroy 70% of the homes and apartments in the cities that they took? I'm aware that Russia did shoot some cruise missiles into apartment buildings, I remember seeing that. But in Gaza, the Israelis are just leveling everything, indiscriminately. Not the same thing. I'm also going to point this out. In Ukraine, there were Ukrainian civilian combatants making Molotov cocktails in apartment buildings and attacking Russian tanks with them. When you do that, you (and the apartment building that you are in) become fair game to be blown up and destroyed. In Gaza, you are seeing attacks on civilians who are not enemy combatants.Did Russia conduct controlled demolitions of Universities after cities were captured? Did Russia set up snipers in captured cities to kill unarmed women and children? Did Russia send agents into hospitals to shoot wounded people of interest in the cities that they captured? Did Russia bomb hospitals? Did Russia ransack cemeteries and exhume bodies? ---------------- Russia is not good - but one of these parties is clearly worse. I'm not in support of withdrawing support for Ukraine. But it is unconscious able to provide anymore money to the Israeli fascists. You have to draw a hard line at genocide.
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 14, 2024 15:05:37 GMT -8
Completely erroneous. Russia bombed playgrounds in Ukraine. Russia bombed subway shelters in Ukraine. Russia bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine REPEATEDLY. Russia bombed supermarkets in Ukraine. They've targeted civilian infrastructure over and over again. There's very, very little difference, outside of root ideology and religion. I'm sorry, did Russia destroy 70% of the homes and apartments in the cities that they took? Did Russia conduct controlled demolitions of Universities after cities were captured? Did Russia set up snipers in captured cities to kill unarmed women and children? Did Russia send agents into hospitals to shoot wounded people of interest in the cities that they captured? Did Russia bomb hospitals? Did Russia ransack cemeteries and exhume bodies? ---------------- Russia is not good - but one of these parties is clearly worse. I'm not in support of withdrawing support for Ukraine. But it is unconscious able to provide anymore money to the Israeli fascists. You have to draw a hard line at genocide.Civilian targets are civilian targets. Both are war crimes, both are genocide. End.
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 15:14:27 GMT -8
I'm sorry, did Russia destroy 70% of the homes and apartments in the cities that they took? Did Russia conduct controlled demolitions of Universities after cities were captured? Did Russia set up snipers in captured cities to kill unarmed women and children? Did Russia send agents into hospitals to shoot wounded people of interest in the cities that they captured? Did Russia bomb hospitals? Did Russia ransack cemeteries and exhume bodies? ---------------- Russia is not good - but one of these parties is clearly worse. I'm not in support of withdrawing support for Ukraine. But it is unconscious able to provide anymore money to the Israeli fascists. You have to draw a hard line at genocide. Civilian targets are civilian targets. Both are war crimes, both are genocide. End. I'm also going to point this out. In Ukraine, there were Ukrainian civilian combatants making Molotov cocktails in apartment buildings and attacking Russian tanks with them.
When you do that, you (and the apartment building that you are in) become fair game to be blown up and destroyed.
In Gaza, you are seeing attacks on civilians who are not enemy combatants.
Also, there is the matter of scale. A few instances of blowing up apartment buildings - that happens in most wars. It is common. Not every missile hits its target. Occasionally, a civilian building does have military people of high interest in it. If you are making the argument that Putin ordered firing 5-10 rockets at apartments in Kyiv, okay sure I buy that. The scale of what Russia did war crime wise, is nowhere near the scale of what Israel has done. And scale does matter. Scale affects the number of civilians killed. There is nuance here.
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 15:19:03 GMT -8
I'm sorry, did Russia destroy 70% of the homes and apartments in the cities that they took? Did Russia conduct controlled demolitions of Universities after cities were captured? Did Russia set up snipers in captured cities to kill unarmed women and children? Did Russia send agents into hospitals to shoot wounded people of interest in the cities that they captured? Did Russia bomb hospitals? Did Russia ransack cemeteries and exhume bodies? ---------------- Russia is not good - but one of these parties is clearly worse. I'm not in support of withdrawing support for Ukraine. But it is unconscious able to provide anymore money to the Israeli fascists. You have to draw a hard line at genocide.Civilian targets are civilian targets. Both are war crimes, both are genocide. End. Furthermore, you and uwphoto are missing the key point that I made. My point is that you cannot agree to fund a military's genocidal campaign.It's irrelevant if the bill also funds defending another country from 'genocide'.It is morally reprehensible to fund a military's genocidal campaign.It's like taking your friend to the hospital who has a broken arm, and being like: "Okay, I'm dropping you off here to get fixed up. Now I'm going to pick up my other friend so that he can do a drive-by shooting."
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 14, 2024 15:20:27 GMT -8
Civilian targets are civilian targets. Both are war crimes, both are genocide. End. I'm also going to point this out. In Ukraine, there were Ukrainian civilian combatants making Molotov cocktails in apartment buildings and attacking Russian tanks with them.
When you do that, you (and the apartment building that you are in) become fair game to be blown up and destroyed.
In Gaza, you are seeing attacks on civilians who are not enemy combatants.
Also, there is the matter of scale. A few instances of blowing up apartment buildings - that happens in most wars. It is common. Not every missile hits its target. Occasionally, a civilian building does have military people of high interest in it. If you are making the argument that Putin ordered firing 5-10 rockets at apartments in Kyiv, okay sure I buy that. The scale of what Russia did war crime wise, is nowhere near the scale of what Israel has done. And scale does matter. Scale affects the number of civilians killed. There is nuance here. No, there is simplicity. You're uninformed. I admire the gusto, but there's no distinction here to be made. Both acts are war crimes, according to the humanitarian rights laws that govern war and conflict. Again, end.
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Post by uwphoto on Feb 14, 2024 15:42:13 GMT -8
Civilian targets are civilian targets. Both are war crimes, both are genocide. End. Furthermore, you and uwphoto are missing the key point that I made. My point is that you cannot agree to fund a military's genocidal campaign.It's irrelevant if the bill also funds defending another country from 'genocide'.It is morally reprehensible to fund a military's genocidal campaign.It's like taking your friend to the hospital who has a broken arm, and being like: "Okay, I'm dropping you off here to get fixed up. Now I'm going to pick up my other friend so that he can do a drive-by shooting."your original post regarding Russia is the single most uninformed and misleading post (ok Nasty post that no women were harmed by hamas is a tie) I've ever read on the Atalk Poli Board...
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 22:54:24 GMT -8
I'm also going to point this out. In Ukraine, there were Ukrainian civilian combatants making Molotov cocktails in apartment buildings and attacking Russian tanks with them.
When you do that, you (and the apartment building that you are in) become fair game to be blown up and destroyed.
In Gaza, you are seeing attacks on civilians who are not enemy combatants.
Also, there is the matter of scale. A few instances of blowing up apartment buildings - that happens in most wars. It is common. Not every missile hits its target. Occasionally, a civilian building does have military people of high interest in it. If you are making the argument that Putin ordered firing 5-10 rockets at apartments in Kyiv, okay sure I buy that. The scale of what Russia did war crime wise, is nowhere near the scale of what Israel has done. And scale does matter. Scale affects the number of civilians killed. There is nuance here. No, there is simplicity. You're uninformed. I admire the gusto, but there's no distinction here to be made. Both acts are war crimes, according to the humanitarian rights laws that govern war and conflict. Again, end. Okay, so why isn't Russia being brought to court for its war crimes then? Israel was brought to court... what, a couple of months into their Gaza conflict? Is that a record for quickest war crime filing with the ICJ? Russia and Ukraine have been fighting for much, much longer then that. I don't see any ICJ filing. And a lot of countries hate Russia.
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 14, 2024 23:05:14 GMT -8
No, there is simplicity. You're uninformed. I admire the gusto, but there's no distinction here to be made. Both acts are war crimes, according to the humanitarian rights laws that govern war and conflict. Again, end. Okay, so why isn't Russia being brought to court for its war crimes then? Israel was brought to court... what, a couple of months into their Gaza conflict? Is that a record for quickest war crime filing with the ICJ? Russia and Ukraine have been fighting for much, much longer then that. I don't see any ICJ filing. And a lot of countries hate Russia. That's a silly barometer to be using.
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 14, 2024 23:16:09 GMT -8
Okay, so why isn't Russia being brought to court for its war crimes then? Israel was brought to court... what, a couple of months into their Gaza conflict? Is that a record for quickest war crime filing with the ICJ? Russia and Ukraine have been fighting for much, much longer then that. I don't see any ICJ filing. And a lot of countries hate Russia. That's a silly barometer to be using. Oh Yes Ryan, it's so silly to require people's accusations be Proven in a court of law.Maybe, if Russia actually was committing war crimes, we would have seen an ICJ filing. It didn't take long for South Africa to do it! There are plenty of Eastern European countries that hate Russia enough to file with the ICJ if there was actual evidence. Two years of war, no filing. If there have been war crimes, the evidence must be harder to find then it has been in Gaza.
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Post by germanaztec on Feb 15, 2024 2:48:47 GMT -8
Just one of many examples: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacreAnd there is not a single house still standing Bachmut. Same with many other cities currently fought. Many more examples. So, Russia is worse than Israel. And Israel is already operating at a quite low level.
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Post by germanaztec on Feb 15, 2024 2:52:20 GMT -8
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 15, 2024 8:15:03 GMT -8
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 15, 2024 14:52:48 GMT -8
War Crimes - are not the same thing as Genocide.
Genocide is a type of war crime. Genocide is arguably the worst type of war crime that you could commit. So saying that Russia committed War Crimes is not the same thing is saying that Russia committed Genocide.Here are some of the war crimes that the US committed in Afghanistan:2002 prisoner torture at Bagram Theater Internment Facility 2003 homicide of Abdul Wali 2010 Kandahar homicides 2011 Helmand murder 2012 Kandahar massacre 2015 Kunduz hospital airstrike In September 2018, the United States threatened to arrest and impose sanctions on International Criminal Court (ICC) judges and other officials if they charged any US soldiers who served in Afghanistan with war crimes. The US further stated it would not cooperate with the ICC if it carried out an investigation into allegations of war crimes by the US in Afghanistan. On 12 April 2019 a panel of ICC judges decided not to open an investigation regarding Afghanistan. Stop acting like war crimes are the same thing as Genocide. What is going on in Gaza is much worse then what is going on in Ukraine.
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Post by aztecryan on Feb 15, 2024 15:32:11 GMT -8
War Crimes - are not the same thing as Genocide.
Genocide is a type of war crime. Genocide is arguably the worst type of war crime that you could commit. So saying that Russia committed War Crimes is not the same thing is saying that Russia committed Genocide.Here are some of the war crimes that the US committed in Afghanistan:2002 prisoner torture at Bagram Theater Internment Facility 2003 homicide of Abdul Wali 2010 Kandahar homicides 2011 Helmand murder 2012 Kandahar massacre 2015 Kunduz hospital airstrike In September 2018, the United States threatened to arrest and impose sanctions on International Criminal Court (ICC) judges and other officials if they charged any US soldiers who served in Afghanistan with war crimes. The US further stated it would not cooperate with the ICC if it carried out an investigation into allegations of war crimes by the US in Afghanistan. On 12 April 2019 a panel of ICC judges decided not to open an investigation regarding Afghanistan. Stop acting like war crimes are the same thing as Genocide. What is going on in Gaza is much worse then what is going on in Ukraine. No amount of goalpost shifting is going to change reality here. Sorry.
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