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Post by HighNTight on Sept 29, 2014 10:27:27 GMT -8
SDSU's on the field results have little to do with whether they will get a P5 invite.
Not true. A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games a year and displays little or no institutional interest in building a winning program. A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership, but one that seldom wins even half its games has no chance. If you don't think so, just take a look at Temple University.
Obviously, a school that is strong in all the areas mentioned and in addition has a healthy average attendance is going to be at or near the top of any P5 expansion list. Unfortunately, SDSU is deficient in two of those critical areas: no signature wins (I hear the Colorado St. Rams laughing at us after their win at BC) and poor attendance.
AzWm
So are we more like: Temple ... " A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games"
or Rutgers ... "A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership"
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Post by fisherville on Sept 29, 2014 10:28:10 GMT -8
You will be singing a different tune after UNLV gets PAC 12 membership. SDSU will get big 12 membership cause of location.
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Post by phantom on Sept 29, 2014 10:34:03 GMT -8
Pat Hill thinks we should be in a P5 conference?....well I think if he's interested and since he's available, he should be our OL coach. That would be a hell of an upgrade.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 29, 2014 10:34:33 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe SDSU will get shut out of big 12 if they expand to 16, they won't be first on list (BYU will be) but they will be in top 4. We won't be the second on that list, either. That would be Cincinnati. Actually, the Bearcats would probably be number one, followed by BYU and Houston. The question is, would we even be the last in, or would the Big-12 prefer to include Florida (i.e., Central Florida)? And there is always SMU, a school with tradition and many very rich alumni. And travel costs to SMU would be modest compared to both Cent. Fla and SDSU. Joining the Big-12 is no sure thing even if they expand to 16, and I believe that such expansion may well qualify as pie-in-the-sky. AzWm
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Post by fisherville on Sept 29, 2014 10:36:46 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe SDSU will get shut out of big 12 if they expand to 16, they won't be first on list (BYU will be) but they will be in top 4. We won't be the second on that list, either. That would be Cincinnati. Actually, the Bearcats would probably be number one, followed by BYU and Houston. The question is, would we even be the last in, or would the Big-12 prefer to include Florida (i.e., Central Florida)? And there is always SMU, a school with tradition and many very rich alumni. And travel costs to SMU would be modest compared to both Cent. Fla and SDSU. Joining the Big-12 is no sure thing even if they expand to 16, and I believe that such expansion may well qualify as pie-in-the-sky. AzWm The only way Houston gets added is if Texas is off to the PAC 12.
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Post by sdmotohead on Sept 29, 2014 10:42:41 GMT -8
SDSU's on the field results have little to do with whether they will get a P5 invite.
Not true. A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games a year and displays little or no institutional interest in building a winning program. A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership, but one that seldom wins even half its games has no chance. If you don't think so, just take a look at Temple University.
Obviously, a school that is strong in all the areas mentioned and in addition has a healthy average attendance is going to be at or near the top of any P5 expansion list. Unfortunately, SDSU is deficient in two of those critical areas: no signature wins (I hear the Colorado St. Rams laughing at us after their win at BC) and poor attendance.
AzWm
Exactly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 10:55:02 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe SDSU will get shut out of big 12 if they expand to 16, they won't be first on list (BYU will be) but they will be in top 4. We won't be the second on that list, either. That would be Cincinnati. Actually, the Bearcats would probably be number one, followed by BYU and Houston. The question is, would we even be the last in, or would the Big-12 prefer to include Florida (i.e., Central Florida)? And there is always SMU, a school with tradition and many very rich alumni. And travel costs to SMU would be modest compared to both Cent. Fla and SDSU. Joining the Big-12 is no sure thing even if they expand to 16, and I believe that such expansion may well qualify as pie-in-the-sky. AzWm Population of Cincinnati: 297,517 Population of Chula Vista: 256,780 Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Cincinnati piss ant little burg in the middle of B10 country surrounded by large P5 schools. It has no real market value to anyone. Cincinnati isn't going to suddenly jump up and steal fans from Ohio State or even Louisville for that matter. Take a look at last years TV ratings. www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/12/17/5216550/college-football-tv-ratings-2013-regular-season-final-sec
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 29, 2014 10:59:41 GMT -8
Not true. A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games a year and displays little or no institutional interest in building a winning program. A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership, but one that seldom wins even half its games has no chance. If you don't think so, just take a look at Temple University.
Obviously, a school that is strong in all the areas mentioned and in addition has a healthy average attendance is going to be at or near the top of any P5 expansion list. Unfortunately, SDSU is deficient in two of those critical areas: no signature wins (I hear the Colorado St. Rams laughing at us after their win at BC) and poor attendance.
AzWm
So are we more like: Temple ... " A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games"
or Rutgers ... "A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership"
More like Rutgers at present. The Scarlet Knights were in the right place at the right time, it seems. But they joined the Big-10, which is oriented somewhat toward the East, while the Big-12 is smack dab in the middle of the country. The other factor that works against us, but worked somewhat in favor of Rutgers, is the East Coast bias. Or perhaps the East Coast/Middle West bias. It's only been in recent decades that those east of the Mississippi have not thought of the West as some strange, alien outpost of civilization. That bias, I think, still has some currency among the decision makers. Let's face it, we are way out on the edge of the continent. It's not totally a matter of the bias in favor of the eastern half of the country. It's a damned long way to San Diego, even though jet travel makes it seem not so bad.
If Albuquerque had a population of two million and UNM played its games in an NFL stadium and typically won 8 or 9 games a year and routinely played in bowl games, the Lobos might well be near the top of any P5 expansion list. In other words, if San Diego and Albuquerque changed places, the Aztecs might already have joined the Big-12, or at least would be a recognized candidate for such an upgrade in status.
Given our location, SDSU is going to have to be very, very strong in all important categories to overcome the handicap of physical remoteness. (Which makes me think that Hawaii had better find a way to win big if it wants a conference upgrade.)
AzWm
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Sept 29, 2014 11:03:14 GMT -8
You will be singing a different tune after UNLV gets PAC 12 membership. SDSU will get big 12 membership cause of location. From what I read on a few of the pac message boards, regardless of academics and football suckage UNLV would be their choice over us simply as a good game day & weekend destination.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 29, 2014 11:07:35 GMT -8
We won't be the second on that list, either. That would be Cincinnati. Actually, the Bearcats would probably be number one, followed by BYU and Houston. The question is, would we even be the last in, or would the Big-12 prefer to include Florida (i.e., Central Florida)? And there is always SMU, a school with tradition and many very rich alumni. And travel costs to SMU would be modest compared to both Cent. Fla and SDSU. Joining the Big-12 is no sure thing even if they expand to 16, and I believe that such expansion may well qualify as pie-in-the-sky. AzWm Population of Cincinnati: 297,517 Population of Chula Vista: 256,780 Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Cincinnati piss ant little burg in the middle of B10 country surrounded by large P5 schools. It has no real market value to anyone. Cincinnati isn't going to suddenly jump up and steal fans from Ohio State or even Louisville for that matter. Take a look at last years TV ratings. www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/12/17/5216550/college-football-tv-ratings-2013-regular-season-final-secWell, a couple of months ago, somebody posted a detailed analysis of the more attractive G5 schools, evaluating their attractiveness to P5 conferences. We came up near the top of the list, but Cincy was number one. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. Among other things, Cincinnati has the advantage of being in Ohio, . The Big-12 does not have an outpost in that state yet. And, let's be frank on this, a comparison of the population of Cincinnati and Chula Vista is not terribly relevant. AzWm
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Post by HighNTight on Sept 29, 2014 11:16:07 GMT -8
So are we more like: Temple ... " A school with good academics located in a large metropolitan area with lots of TV sets may not get a second look if they routinely win only 3-5 games"
or Rutgers ... "A school whose academic and location factors are favorable but has only a middling on-field performance (such as 6-8 wins a year) may be given favorable consideration for P5 membership"
More like Rutgers at present. The Scarlet Knights were in the right place at the right time, it seems. But they joined the Big-10, which is oriented somewhat toward the East, while the Big-12 is smack dab in the middle of the country. The other factor that works against us, but worked somewhat in favor of Rutgers, is the East Coast bias. Or perhaps the East Coast/Middle West bias. It's only been in recent decades that those east of the Mississippi have not thought of the West as some strange, alien outpost of civilization. That bias, I think, still has some currency among the decision makers. Let's face it, we are way out on the edge of the continent. It's not totally a matter of the bias in favor of the eastern half of the country. It's a damned long way to San Diego, even though jet travel makes it seem not so bad.
If Albuquerque had a population of two million and UNM played its games in an NFL stadium and typically won 8 or 9 games a year and routinely played in bowl games, the Lobos might well be near the top of any P5 expansion list. In other words, if San Diego and Albuquerque changed places, the Aztecs might already have joined the Big-12, or at least would be a recognized candidate for such an upgrade in status.
Given our location, SDSU is going to have to be very, very strong in all important categories to overcome the handicap of physical remoteness. (Which makes me think that Hawaii had better find a way to win big if it wants a conference upgrade.)
AzWm
If this were true, then the PAC would probably have added UNM & possibly NMSU long ago to create a 12 member conference that stretched from WA, OR & CA to AZ and NM -- then would have maybe added UT and CO to go to 14 (depending on how history played out with the change of UNM & NMSU following the path of UofA and ASU)
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Post by podpeople on Sept 29, 2014 12:40:27 GMT -8
You will be singing a different tune after UNLV gets PAC 12 membership. SDSU will get big 12 membership cause of location. From what I read on a few of the pac message boards, regardless of academics and football suckage UNLV would be their choice over us simply as a good game day & weekend destination. and that would be the last straw. We should start playing more games against the big 12 as soon as we can. We need to have a dialogue with them. Let's do this!
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Post by TruAztec on Sept 29, 2014 12:45:35 GMT -8
We won't be the second on that list, either. That would be Cincinnati. Actually, the Bearcats would probably be number one, followed by BYU and Houston. The question is, would we even be the last in, or would the Big-12 prefer to include Florida (i.e., Central Florida)? And there is always SMU, a school with tradition and many very rich alumni. And travel costs to SMU would be modest compared to both Cent. Fla and SDSU. Joining the Big-12 is no sure thing even if they expand to 16, and I believe that such expansion may well qualify as pie-in-the-sky. AzWm Population of Cincinnati: 297,517 Population of Chula Vista: 256,780 Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Cincinnati piss ant little burg in the middle of B10 country surrounded by large P5 schools. It has no real market value to anyone. Cincinnati isn't going to suddenly jump up and steal fans from Ohio State or even Louisville for that matter. Take a look at last years TV ratings. www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/12/17/5216550/college-football-tv-ratings-2013-regular-season-final-secPopulation of a city is not as important as population of metro area, interest in the program on a regional level and location in regards to rest of conference. While Cincinnati is not huge, it is a big city, has a good size area of interest and is closer to WVU then we are. Not sure the Big-12 wants to be a coast to coast conference.
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Sept 29, 2014 12:49:31 GMT -8
From what I read on a few of the pac message boards, regardless of academics and football suckage UNLV would be their choice over us simply as a good game day & weekend destination. and that would be the last straw. We should start playing more games against the big 12 as soon as we can. We need to have a dialogue with them. Let's do this! A "fully funded" SDSU on a level playing field is the last thing many of the pac-prix want! The prospect of SDSU actually gaining respectability in the eyes of local and WC recruits scares the cr@p out of some of them. They will fight this tooth and nail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 13:04:45 GMT -8
Population of Cincinnati: 297,517 Population of Chula Vista: 256,780 Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Cincinnati piss ant little burg in the middle of B10 country surrounded by large P5 schools. It has no real market value to anyone. Cincinnati isn't going to suddenly jump up and steal fans from Ohio State or even Louisville for that matter. Take a look at last years TV ratings. www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/12/17/5216550/college-football-tv-ratings-2013-regular-season-final-secWell, a couple of months ago, somebody posted a detailed analysis of the more attractive G5 schools, evaluating their attractiveness to P5 conferences. We came up near the top of the list, but Cincy was number one. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. Among other things, Cincinnati has the advantage of being in Ohio, . The Big-12 does not have an outpost in that state yet. And, let's be frank on this, a comparison of the population of Cincinnati and Chula Vista is not terribly relevant. AzWm So your position is based on some detailed analysis posted by someone that said Cincy was #1? What advantage is there to being in Ohio ( population 11 million) as opposed to say, California ( population 40 million)? The B12 doesn't have an "outpost" in either state (along with Vermont, Delaware, Alaska and 40 other states). So again what EXACTLY makes Cincy the front runner in any expansion talk? We're talking about money and TV are we not? Did you look at the link? I'll summarize for you: RANK 4. Ohio State - 5,240,000 Average Viewers 40. UCF - 1,640,000 (#1 nonP5)47. Louisville- 1,435,000 52. West Virginia - 1,271,000 55. Boise - 1,189,000 (#2 nonP5)56. SDSU - 1,134,00057. BYU - 1,129,000 59. Kansas State - 1,058.000 74. Iowa State - 644,000 79. Kansas - 564,000 80. Cincinnati - 531,00084. Houston - 371,000 So now we know any claim Cincinnati has to being the preferred expansion candidate isn't based on population, state in which it is located or TV ratings. So what is it? Why are they superior ?
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Post by HighNTight on Sept 29, 2014 13:55:23 GMT -8
Well, a couple of months ago, somebody posted a detailed analysis of the more attractive G5 schools, evaluating their attractiveness to P5 conferences. We came up near the top of the list, but Cincy was number one. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. Among other things, Cincinnati has the advantage of being in Ohio, . The Big-12 does not have an outpost in that state yet. And, let's be frank on this, a comparison of the population of Cincinnati and Chula Vista is not terribly relevant. AzWm So your position is based on some detailed analysis posted by someone that said Cincy was #1? What advantage is there to being in Ohio ( population 11 million) as opposed to say, California ( population 40 million)? The B12 doesn't have an "outpost" in either state (along with Vermont, Delaware, Alaska and 40 other states). So again what EXACTLY makes Cincy the front runner in any expansion talk? We're talking about money and TV are we not? Did you look at the link? I'll summarize for you: RANK 4. Ohio State - 5,240,000 Average Viewers 40. UCF - 1,640,000 (#1 nonP5)47. Louisville- 1,435,000 52. West Virginia - 1,271,000 55. Boise - 1,189,000 (#2 nonP5)56. SDSU - 1,134,00057. BYU - 1,129,000 59. Kansas State - 1,058.000 74. Iowa State - 644,000 79. Kansas - 564,000 80. Cincinnati - 531,00084. Houston - 371,000 So now we know any claim Cincinnati has to being the preferred expansion candidate isn't based on population, state in which it is located or TV ratings. So what is it? Why are they superior ? B12 member West Virginia wants a travel partner and has been open and vocal about it. What teams on your list (that are not already in the B12) are available to the B12 to add and brings the most to the B12 while at the same time satisfying WVU? 80. Cincinnati (531,000) has to be at or near the top.
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Post by darksidereturns on Sept 29, 2014 14:23:09 GMT -8
So now we know any claim Cincinnati has to being the preferred expansion candidate isn't based on population, state in which it is located or TV ratings. So what is it? Why are they superior ? Here's the article: frankthetank.me/2013/10/30/the-big-12-expansion-index-wake-me-up-when-its-all-over/According to Mr Tank...Brand Value, Nat'l TV value, Recruiting and a little basketball and geography are the answers for which you're looking.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 14:44:48 GMT -8
So your position is based on some detailed analysis posted by someone that said Cincy was #1? What advantage is there to being in Ohio ( population 11 million) as opposed to say, California ( population 40 million)? The B12 doesn't have an "outpost" in either state (along with Vermont, Delaware, Alaska and 40 other states). So again what EXACTLY makes Cincy the front runner in any expansion talk? We're talking about money and TV are we not? Did you look at the link? I'll summarize for you: RANK 4. Ohio State - 5,240,000 Average Viewers 40. UCF - 1,640,000 (#1 nonP5)47. Louisville- 1,435,000 52. West Virginia - 1,271,000 55. Boise - 1,189,000 (#2 nonP5)56. SDSU - 1,134,00057. BYU - 1,129,000 59. Kansas State - 1,058.000 74. Iowa State - 644,000 79. Kansas - 564,000 80. Cincinnati - 531,00084. Houston - 371,000 So now we know any claim Cincinnati has to being the preferred expansion candidate isn't based on population, state in which it is located or TV ratings. So what is it? Why are they superior ? B12 member West Virginia wants a travel partner and has been open and vocal about it. What teams on your list (that are not already in the B12) are available to the B12 to add and brings the most to the B12 while at the same time satisfying WVU? 80. Cincinnati (531,000) has to be at or near the top. Not sure where this travel partner thing comes from. Seems dated to me. It may be on the list of things to consider but it would be pretty far down IMO. Markets, Marketing potential and TV eyeballs have to be the big 3. In that case, if I'm the emperor of the B12, I grab SDSU ( 3.5 Million Regional, 40 million state population) and UCF( 1.25million regional, 20 million state) in the 1st round of expansions followed possibly by BYU and going totally off the map for a second, San Jose State ( that's right, i said it!) . The thought of Texas and Oklahoma making trips semi-annually into southern and northern California is just too good IMO. UCF and SDSU instantly add regional populations that far exceed any of the current B12 teams not on the I35 corridor and expands the conference into the 1st and 4rd most populous states in the union and gives them a presence in the 3 biggest football player factories ( Texas, California and Florida). Fun Fact: San Diego County would be the 3rd largest state in the B12 were it to be added with about 400,000 fewer people the Oklahoma but more than Kansas, Iowa or West Virginia.
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Post by HighNTight on Sept 29, 2014 14:51:39 GMT -8
B12 member West Virginia wants a travel partner and has been open and vocal about it. What teams on your list (that are not already in the B12) are available to the B12 to add and brings the most to the B12 while at the same time satisfying WVU? 80. Cincinnati (531,000) has to be at or near the top. Not sure where this travel partner thing comes from. Seems dated to me. It may be on the list of things to consider but it would be pretty far down IMO. Markets, Marketing potential and TV eyeballs have to be the big 3. In that case, if I'm the emperor of the B12, I grab SDSU ( 3.5 Million Regional, 40 million state population) and UCF( 1.25million regional, 20 million state) in the 1st round of expansions followed possibly by BYU and going totally off the map for a second, San Jose State ( that's right, i said it!) . The thought of Texas and Oklahoma making trips semi-annually into southern and northern California is just too good IMO. UCF and SDSU instantly add regional populations that far exceed any of the current B12 teams not on the I35 corridor and expands the conference into the 1st and 4rd most populous states in the union and gives them a presence in the 3 biggest football player factories ( Texas, California and Florida). Fun Fact: San Diego County would be the 3rd largest state in the B12 were it to be added with about 400,000 fewer people the Oklahoma but more than Kansas, Iowa or West Virginia. Throughout the basketball season, opposing coaches have acknowledged how difficult it must be fore WVU to constantly visit the Midwest. Those opponents are eager to work with West Virginia in helping the league find a solution. "One of the things that was interesting coming away from the Athletic Directors' retreat that we had in January was that the Athletic Directors' were unanimous in prioritizing in assisting West Virginia," Bowlsby discussed. "They see it for the challenges it presents, yet they recognize that West Virginia is a great new member of the league and want to do everything they can to help." Certainly another way the league could help WVU is to add a conference member that is geographically more in the "neighborhood" of Morgantown. Iowa State is currently the closest member to West Virginia University and that is more than 800 miles away from Morgantown. "We have to be constantly vigilant and we are," Bowlsby stated. "Not withstanding the fact that it would be great to have a travel partner and geographic partner for West Virginia, we need to make sure we are making the right decisions on expansion." Bowlsby continues to stand his ground that the league is very comfortable where it is with 10 members. The ACC recently added Notre Dame, Pitt and Syracuse. The Big Ten got bigger with the additions of Rutgers and Maryland. But the Big 12 likes its configuration right now and does not plan to grow unless it will clearly help from both a financial and competitive standpoint. "We need to have expansion candidates that bring real value in excess of pro rata," Bowlsby stated. "We are distributing the largest amount of money to our members on a member by member basis of anybody in college athletics. I don't think we want to dilute that distribution by adding members that don't bring real value." Big 12 Commissioner Discusses WVU Travel, Expansion Posted: Mar 15, 2013 6:17 AM PDT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 15:03:13 GMT -8
So now we know any claim Cincinnati has to being the preferred expansion candidate isn't based on population, state in which it is located or TV ratings. So what is it? Why are they superior ? Here's the article: frankthetank.me/2013/10/30/the-big-12-expansion-index-wake-me-up-when-its-all-over/According to Mr Tank...Brand Value, Nat'l TV value, Recruiting and a little basketball and geography are the answers for which you're looking. Cincinnati doesn't even come close to measuring up in any of the quantifiable criteria he sets forth and only excels at his soft qualitative metrics: Football Brand value and Geographic "fit", which are utter horsecrap criteria. I looked at a map and I-35 doesn't go anywhere near Cincinnati but it does go through Austin, Waco, Dallas, Norman and Stillwater. Everywhere else is of equal geographic "fit" He also rates SDSU academics as a 0 when we are far from a zero and more or less equally ranked in the USNWR. I'm calling BS on this agenda driven piece of yellow "journalism".
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