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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 6, 2014 17:32:02 GMT -8
Please read this, all of this. To say that it is horrifying is to understate the truth.
From the linked article, emphasis mine . . . . . . .
Hamas is an organization devoted to ending Jewish history. This is what so many Jews understand, and what so many non-Jews don’t. The novelist Amos Oz, who has led Israel's left-wing peace camp for decades, said in an interview last week that he doesn't see a prospect for compromise between Israel and Hamas. "I have been a man of compromise all my life," Oz said. "But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'"
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/what-would-hamas-do-if-it-could-do-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true
AzWm
PS: President Obama said today, in part, " . . . I am not a fan of Hamas." Well, I'm not a fan of tofu. I'm not a fan of belly-dancing. I'm not a fan of saying I'm not a fan of.
That's it? The leader of the Free World can only say "I am not a fan of Hamas"? Would Winston Churchill have said, "I'm not a fan of Hitler"? Well, here's what Winnie actually did say in June, 1941.
Hitler is a monster of wickedness, insatiable in his lust for blood and plunder. Not content with having all Europe under his heel, or else terrorized into various forms of abject submission, he must now carry his work of butchery and desolation among the vast multitudes of Russia and of Asia.
Do you suppose there were any Brits or Americans (or Germans, for that matter) who said after hearing or reading those words, "Well, Winston, why can't you tell us what you really think of Adolf Hitler?" I don't think so. But, in contrast to the stirring and crystal clear pronouncements of Churchill and FDR, we have the "whatever" President who prefers to lead from behind. Way, way behind. That includes his public statements, which some enterprising fellow may try to distill into a product that should be a sure-fire cure for insomnia. Stentorian is not an adjective that could ever apply to our Chief Executive.
Explain to me why Obama cannot use his office, the Bully Pulpit, to make explicit statements that reveal those things that most deeply inspire, or in this case trouble, him? Is it moral cowardice? Is it because he cannot distinguish between good and evil? Or is it because he has simply tired of the job he so much wanted but which, now that the public has turned against him, he finds a bit boring?
Are there still those who think that BHO is the smartest man in the room? The most notable intellect since Thomas Jefferson? I hope to god that there are not.
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Post by azteccc on Aug 6, 2014 19:16:38 GMT -8
If Israel wants to attempt to end Hamas with disregard to humanitarian concerns and civilian casualties, go for it.
The United States of America should in no way be involved and should immediately end the financing of any Israeli offensive, including all sources of aid until the offensive stops.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 6, 2014 23:33:14 GMT -8
If Israel wants to attempt to end Hamas with disregard to humanitarian concerns and civilian casualties, go for it. The United States of America should in no way be involved and should immediately end the financing of any Israeli offensive, including all sources of aid until the offensive stops. Unless every news report we are getting is incredibly false, the IDF is making every effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how do you do that when the enemy is using his people as human shields? This stands in stark contrast to the Hamas practice of making civilian casualties their major goal. Here's another question. How familiar are you with the RAF's bombing tactics used against German cities during WWII? Or, I must say, what do you know of our own bombing tactics used against Japanese cities in that same war? As odious as were the German and Japanese governments in WWII, they did not deliberately use German and Japanese citizens as human shields. Perhaps that was partly because they were not under the illusion that the Brits and we were going to go soft after having become the targets of Nazi and Japanese aggression. Israelis have a very, very narrow margin of safety when dealing with enemies that would rather die themselves than see Israelis continue to exist. Imagine what would now be happening in Israel if the Iron Dome defense system had not been invented? It is only because Israel has been diligent in defending itself that there are now not thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of dead Jews (and probably a lot of Israeli Muslims as well). I will repeat what I have said before. Those who seek to destroy Israel should keep in mind that, should that tiny state be on the verge of annihilation, those who seek that annihilation would find out what it must have been like to be in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the Summer of 1945. AzWn |
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Post by azson on Aug 7, 2014 8:40:09 GMT -8
Please read this, all of this. To say that it is horrifying is to understate the truth.
From the linked article, emphasis mine . . . . . . .
Hamas is an organization devoted to ending Jewish history. This is what so many Jews understand, and what so many non-Jews don’t. The novelist Amos Oz, who has led Israel's left-wing peace camp for decades, said in an interview last week that he doesn't see a prospect for compromise between Israel and Hamas. "I have been a man of compromise all my life," Oz said. "But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'"
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/what-would-hamas-do-if-it-could-do-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true
AzWm
PS: President Obama said today, in part, " . . . I am not a fan of Hamas." Well, I'm not a fan of tofu. I'm not a fan of belly-dancing. I'm not a fan of saying I'm not a fan of.
That's it? The leader of the Free World can only say "I am not a fan of Hamas"? Would Winston Churchill have said, "I'm not a fan of Hitler"? Well, here's what Winnie actually did say in June, 1941.
Hitler is a monster of wickedness, insatiable in his lust for blood and plunder. Not content with having all Europe under his heel, or else terrorized into various forms of abject submission, he must now carry his work of butchery and desolation among the vast multitudes of Russia and of Asia.
Do you suppose there were any Brits or Americans (or Germans, for that matter) who said after hearing or reading those words, "Well, Winston, why can't you tell us what you really think of Adolf Hitler?" I don't think so. But, in contrast to the stirring and crystal clear pronouncements of Churchill and FDR, we have the "whatever" President who prefers to lead from behind. Way, way behind. That includes his public statements, which some enterprising fellow may try to distill into a product that should be a sure-fire cure for insomnia. Stentorian is not an adjective that could ever apply to our Chief Executive.
Explain to me why Obama cannot use his office, the Bully Pulpit, to make explicit statements that reveal those things that most deeply inspire, or in this case trouble, him? Is it moral cowardice? Is it because he cannot distinguish between good and evil? Or is it because he has simply tired of the job he so much wanted but which, now that the public has turned against him, he finds a bit boring?
Are there still those who think that BHO is the smartest man in the room? The most notable intellect since Thomas Jefferson? I hope to god that there are not.
Hamas=Hitler. A ridiculous comparison, Wm. Hamas was born out of decades of degradation and the chickens have come home to roost for Israel. Since you are a fan of history, I recommend reading this Op-Ed essay which puts this never-ending FUBAR conflict into its proper past-century context: www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25313-another-descent-into-hell |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 7, 2014 10:30:41 GMT -8
azson, if anything, Hamas may be in some ways worse than Hitler. Of course there are many differences between the Nazis and Hammas, though anti-Semitic Arabs collaborated willingly with the Nazis in WWII. One difference is that the Nazis had very little support outside of Germany. By way of contrast, consider the growing and widespread support around the world for haters of Israel.
The point is simply this; Hamas seeks to destroy Israel as a state and kill all the Jews living there. More broadly, the most virulently anti-Semitic Islamist groups will not be happy so long as any Jews remain alive anywhere in the world. Israel, on the other hand, seeks to live in peace with its neighbors and would be delighted to have normalized relations with them. Remember that there are many Muslims living in Israel, and their lot in terms of human rights, participation in democratic institutions, economic opportunities, etc., exceed by far what Arabs in Muslim countries must endure.
When the Israelis left Gaza several years ago, they left many greenhouses that could have been used by Palestinians to help build their economy. Those facilities were quickly and quite purposely destroyed by Hamas. It is a measure of the Islamists' hatred of Jews that objects of value were destroyed simply because they were built by Israelis.
The most troubling change in world opinion in my lifetime is the shift from support of Israel and the Jews in general, to the current uptick in anti-Semitism seen in Europe and, of course, by Islamo-fascists in the Middle East who would rather destroy Israel outright rather than help improve the conditions under which Palestinians live.
AzWm
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 7, 2014 11:24:17 GMT -8
If Israel wants to attempt to end Hamas with disregard to humanitarian concerns and civilian casualties, go for it. The United States of America should in no way be involved and should immediately end the financing of any Israeli offensive, including all sources of aid until the offensive stops. This line of thought and where it would lead is despicable. You are either very low on a sense of right and wrong or so ill informed you should be denied the right to vote. |
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Post by davdesid on Aug 7, 2014 14:20:11 GMT -8
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Post by azteccc on Aug 7, 2014 14:40:00 GMT -8
If Israel wants to attempt to end Hamas with disregard to humanitarian concerns and civilian casualties, go for it. The United States of America should in no way be involved and should immediately end the financing of any Israeli offensive, including all sources of aid until the offensive stops. This line of thought and where it would lead is despicable. You are either very low on a sense of right and wrong or so ill informed you should be denied the right to vote. I am quite libertarian when it comes to international conflicts, I'm sorry that you prefer interventionism. I believe that your line of thinking in regards to the ME is quite despicable, so I suppose we are even. I am not under the impression that Israel's citizens compose some elevated, or threatened, group of people. I understand the history of the Jewish people, but in reality, the Jewish military is the 11th strongest on the planet without taking into account their nuclear capability, and by far the strongest in the Middle East. They are not a child that needs protection, and are capable of handling their own affairs. If they are not, and are in fact dependent on the US for survival, then they need to take military actions only when sanctioned by the US. But that isn't the case, IMO. We don't belong in their conflict because we can't afford it - we have more pressing matters here. I am not interested in taking sides in another country's conflicts simply because we have political parties in America - it doesn't make sense. Further, to address your "line of thought" comment, I find your line of thinking - in dehumanizing the people of Gaza to the extent that they do not value the lives of their children - similar to the dehumanizing that directly contributed to the German treatment of the Jewish people. I find the lack of recognition of that dehumanization much more troubling than my view that Americans should not be funding offensive military operations of the Israeli army. |
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Post by tuff on Aug 7, 2014 15:37:48 GMT -8
Please read this, all of this. To say that it is horrifying is to understate the truth.
From the linked article, emphasis mine . . . . . . .
Hamas is an organization devoted to ending Jewish history. This is what so many Jews understand, and what so many non-Jews don’t. The novelist Amos Oz, who has led Israel's left-wing peace camp for decades, said in an interview last week that he doesn't see a prospect for compromise between Israel and Hamas. "I have been a man of compromise all my life," Oz said. "But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'"
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/what-would-hamas-do-if-it-could-do-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true
AzWm
PS: President Obama said today, in part, " . . . I am not a fan of Hamas." Well, I'm not a fan of tofu. I'm not a fan of belly-dancing. I'm not a fan of saying I'm not a fan of.
That's it? The leader of the Free World can only say "I am not a fan of Hamas"? Would Winston Churchill have said, "I'm not a fan of Hitler"? Well, here's what Winnie actually did say in June, 1941.
Hitler is a monster of wickedness, insatiable in his lust for blood and plunder. Not content with having all Europe under his heel, or else terrorized into various forms of abject submission, he must now carry his work of butchery and desolation among the vast multitudes of Russia and of Asia.
Do you suppose there were any Brits or Americans (or Germans, for that matter) who said after hearing or reading those words, "Well, Winston, why can't you tell us what you really think of Adolf Hitler?" I don't think so. But, in contrast to the stirring and crystal clear pronouncements of Churchill and FDR, we have the "whatever" President who prefers to lead from behind. Way, way behind. That includes his public statements, which some enterprising fellow may try to distill into a product that should be a sure-fire cure for insomnia. Stentorian is not an adjective that could ever apply to our Chief Executive.
Explain to me why Obama cannot use his office, the Bully Pulpit, to make explicit statements that reveal those things that most deeply inspire, or in this case trouble, him? Is it moral cowardice? Is it because he cannot distinguish between good and evil? Or is it because he has simply tired of the job he so much wanted but which, now that the public has turned against him, he finds a bit boring?
Are there still those who think that BHO is the smartest man in the room? The most notable intellect since Thomas Jefferson? I hope to god that there are not.
Hamas=Hitler. A ridiculous comparison, Wm. Hamas was born out of decades of degradation and the chickens have come home to roost for Israel. Since you are a fan of history, I recommend reading this Op-Ed essay which puts this never-ending FUBAR conflict into its proper past-century context: www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25313-another-descent-into-hellI don"t know what to say to this comment. When Hamas' own charter states that they want to wipe every Israeli off the map, and kill every Jew in the world, degradation has nothing to do with it. It is just plain wrong. And SICK. And that is exactly what Hitler tried to do. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 7, 2014 21:09:35 GMT -8
". . . .decades of degradation"? How many centuries of degradation were suffered by Jews before the creation of the modern state of Israel?
Hint: Give a bit more thought before you post.
AzWm
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Post by azson on Aug 8, 2014 11:23:34 GMT -8
". . . .decades of degradation"? How many centuries of degradation were suffered by Jews before the creation of the modern state of Israel? Hint: Give a bit more thought before you post. AzWm Neither I, nor the Op-Ed (which it doesn't sound like you even bothered to read) is debating that Jews have suffered. On the contrary, the piece points out that their historical suffering is psychically engrained and has been a cornerstone (it could be argued consciously or subconsciously) of their righteous, self-justified treatment of Palestine. Tip: If you're going to employ Red Herring/Straw Man fallacies, at least first read and comprehend previous points made. |
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 8, 2014 15:55:36 GMT -8
This line of thought and where it would lead is despicable. You are either very low on a sense of right and wrong or so ill informed you should be denied the right to vote. I am quite libertarian when it comes to international conflicts, I'm sorry that you prefer interventionism. I believe that your line of thinking in regards to the ME is quite despicable, so I suppose we are even. I am not under the impression that Israel's citizens compose some elevated, or threatened, group of people. I understand the history of the Jewish people, but in reality, the Jewish military is the 11th strongest on the planet without taking into account their nuclear capability, and by far the strongest in the Middle East. They are not a child that needs protection, and are capable of handling their own affairs. If they are not, and are in fact dependent on the US for survival, then they need to take military actions only when sanctioned by the US. But that isn't the case, IMO. We don't belong in their conflict because we can't afford it - we have more pressing matters here. I am not interested in taking sides in another country's conflicts simply because we have political parties in America - it doesn't make sense. Further, to address your "line of thought" comment, I find your line of thinking - in dehumanizing the people of Gaza to the extent that they do not value the lives of their children - similar to the dehumanizing that directly contributed to the German treatment of the Jewish people. I find the lack of recognition of that dehumanization much more troubling than my view that Americans should not be funding offensive military operations of the Israeli army. Why am I not surprised that you don't get it? Have you no moral common sense? |
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