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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 19, 2009 17:35:32 GMT -8
Quite frankly, I'm much rather see this National Politics forum changed into the Wildlife and Natural History of San Diego forum. Seems that people can managed to be civil on this topic. The senseless and often mean-spirited bickering of politics is otherwise driving me away from here. William is correct, I think, that we are being a bit more civil than we were on the old forum, but as much as I'd like to see the sort of forum you propose, I'm not sure how many people we'd get for it, although we might get some. Fishtec for sure and maybe Bruce since he's an avid fisherman. Think it might have to be expanded to some sort of science forum in general, or at least Left Coast rather than just this county. Of course, that would be with the caveat that it contain no climate change arguments ;D. =Bob
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 19, 2009 19:19:23 GMT -8
Uwaztec, I caught that fish in 1967 or 68 after I returned home to San Diego after an outstanding fishing, but poor academic year in Wildlife Management at Humboldt State. At the time, the Santa Margarita was pretty interesting in that the DFG was planting quarter-pounders and there were some very nice largemouth in some of the sidewaters that had ponded up a bit. It was a very nice looking steelhead, thought not huge. This was prior to TU or CAl Trout establishing anything in this area. I'm kind of fascinated with the history of steelhead here as I once read the diaries of a couple of old game wardens from the 20's and 30's who used to move the fish upstream by hand when the water was too low. Working with the USFWS and DFG on this in the past, that was the most recent and southernmost steelhead in the last 50 years or so, though I'm happy to say that the smolts found in the next watershed to the north are evidence there were still fish her a few years ago. In his book Steelhead, Trey Combs reports on a steelhead caught in the Otay River and some years ago we did a survey on the Rio San Antonio 150 miles south of the border. While we did not see any steelhead, we did see to Pacific lamprey which is pretty amazing. You might find the San Diego Trout website of interest. Thanks... I'll give the web site a try. My friend is a 'counter" through the window at Bonneville. He said they had 38,000 steelhead in one day last week... some kind of record. I have read historic accounts of the decline of steelhead and salmon in the West... and I know it's a disaster... but I'm going to go fish the White Salmon with him in a couple of weeks.
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 20, 2009 7:07:31 GMT -8
I grew up with my youth divided between Golden Hill Rec. Center (we lived at 26th and C) and the outdoors, either fishing and camping with my father or hunting in Imperial Valley with my older cousin. I started working for room and board at Lake Sutherland on the dock and in the concession when I was 12 and was given responsibility for all of the recreation activities at Lower Otay and lived in the boathouse there in 1966, when I was 19. Throughout, I was always closely involved with DFG wardens and biologists, particularly Larry Bottroff. After three years of floundering around at Mesa, I fished my way through the 67-68 school year at Humboldt, ran out of money and came back to SD and SDSU. While a student I opened and managed Chollas Lake from 71 to 74, then was hired to manage the San Diego City Lakes Program which I did until my retirement. Moonlighted by teaching rec. courses at USIU, UCSD and SDSU and serving as the outdoor writer for The Tribune. Retired from the city in 2003 and have done a little work with the DFG and F&WS along with some private consulting in lake management. Since I couldn't hack the hard sciences and math to become a biologist, I focused on managing facilities, programs and people. Now though, I am mostly retired, enjoying my family, friends, fishing, hunting and Aztecs. Especially the Aztecs!!!
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 20, 2009 7:11:29 GMT -8
Bob, steelhead smolts were confirmed in the San Mateo, which is why I recommended checking the San Diego Trout website. Sorry to hear about all of the cats you've lost. We have a 14 year old American eskimo (spitz) that is getting up there and an 11 year old springer spaniel that is a great pheasant dog, but he is getting up there in years for hard hunting, so I am very careful with him.
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 20, 2009 17:55:33 GMT -8
Bob, steelhead smolts were confirmed in the San Mateo, which is why I recommended checking the San Diego Trout website. Sorry to hear about all of the cats you've lost. We have a 14 year old American eskimo (spitz) that is getting up there and an 11 year old springer spaniel that is a great pheasant dog, but he is getting up there in years for hard hunting, so I am very careful with him. Pets die; it's a simple fact of life. It would be nice if they had 30 year lifespans but the don't, so it's something you live with by loving them to death and enjoying them while you have them. I like dogs but they're too high maintenance for me and, as my wife likes to say, cats are sources of never-ending entertainment. I'm hopeful that in a couple months we can get two male kittens - that will drive our two 10 year-old females nuts . Thanks for the answer on San Mateo - I couldn't remember which stream it was. =Bob
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 20, 2009 18:06:40 GMT -8
I grew up with my youth divided between Golden Hill Rec. Center (we lived at 26th and C) and the outdoors, either fishing and camping with my father or hunting in Imperial Valley with my older cousin. I started working for room and board at Lake Sutherland on the dock and in the concession when I was 12 and was given responsibility for all of the recreation activities at Lower Otay and lived in the boathouse there in 1966, when I was 19. Throughout, I was always closely involved with DFG wardens and biologists, particularly Larry Bottroff. After three years of floundering around at Mesa, I fished my way through the 67-68 school year at Humboldt, ran out of money and came back to SD and SDSU. While a student I opened and managed Chollas Lake from 71 to 74, then was hired to manage the San Diego City Lakes Program which I did until my retirement. Moonlighted by teaching rec. courses at USIU, UCSD and SDSU and serving as the outdoor writer for The Tribune. Retired from the city in 2003 and have done a little work with the DFG and F&WS along with some private consulting in lake management. Since I couldn't hack the hard sciences and math to become a biologist, I focused on managing facilities, programs and people. Now though, I am mostly retired, enjoying my family, friends, fishing, hunting and Aztecs. Especially the Aztecs!!! Sounds like a pretty decent life. I've always said that if I could handle the math, I'd have been an engineer (although it would have bothered me that engineers and sex offenders are "registered" ;D). I do have to say that I'm enjoying this thread a lot, mostly because I get to discuss things with you and UW and both of you know what you're writing about (I worked with UW for a few years, BTW). I really get tired of people who read this or that commentary assuming they've got the skinny when all they are basing in on is politics. This knee-jerk reaction that this or that is all due to the enviros (or often, the "radical enviros") is ridiculous. It's nice to discuss things with a couple people who know what they're writing about. =Bob
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 20, 2009 21:08:00 GMT -8
It has been a great life from my perspective and with few regrets and little remorse. I actually identified the job that I held with the city for nearly 30 years at an Outdoor Careers Conference held at the Federal Building for eighth graders.
When politics enter into most issues whether it is building road and bridges or healthcare, any missteps in the process or a bad result can theoretically be remedied with more time and more money.
Natural resources like rivers, water, flora and fauna don't work that way as a misstep may well be irreversible with no amount of time or money capable of resulting in a fix. In my view, that is one of the best reasons to try to remove politics when possible and proceed very carefully and thoughtfully when the subject is our natural resources.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 21, 2009 6:03:59 GMT -8
Bob, steelhead smolts were confirmed in the San Mateo, which is why I recommended checking the San Diego Trout website. Sorry to hear about all of the cats you've lost. We have a 14 year old American eskimo (spitz) that is getting up there and an 11 year old springer spaniel that is a great pheasant dog, but he is getting up there in years for hard hunting, so I am very careful with him. Pets die; it's a simple fact of life. It would be nice if they had 30 year lifespans but the don't, so it's something you live with by loving them to death and enjoying them while you have them. I like dogs but they're too high maintenance for me and, as my wife likes to say, cats are sources of never-ending entertainment. I'm hopeful that in a couple months we can get two male kittens - that will drive our two 10 year-old females nuts . Thanks for the answer on San Mateo - I couldn't remember which stream it was. =Bob I guess you either love cats or hate them. I am concerned now that we had to put our beloved Boxer down a couple days ago that neighborhood cats will be in our yard once again to kill all our western fence lizards and alligator lizards.... which of course keep our insect population down. People in general do not control their cats and they run roughshod through neighborhood bird and reptile populations. One house down the street is one of those "Adams Family" type houses.. very disheveled with about 10 cats on the loose. I cheer when I hear coyotes celebrating on the back hill over a cat snack.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 21, 2009 6:15:40 GMT -8
It has been a great life from my perspective and with few regrets and little remorse. I actually identified the job that I held with the city for nearly 30 years at an Outdoor Careers Conference held at the Federal Building for eighth graders. When politics enter into most issues whether it is building road and bridges or healthcare, any missteps in the process or a bad result can theoretically be remedied with more time and more money. Natural resources like rivers, water, flora and fauna don't work that way as a misstep may well be irreversible with no amount of time or money capable of resulting in a fix. In my view, that is one of the best reasons to try to remove politics when possible and proceed very carefully and thoughtfully when the subject is our natural resources. No matter the politics, hunters and fisherman get it. The problem is that preservation (ie: Nature Conservancy etc.) are considered "Left" organizations by the Right. The BIA, Mineral Rights, Oil, etc. are all right leaning and support the Right. A few years ago, the far Right represented by the "Wise Use" movement tried to sabotage the Nature Conservancy. Recently the Nature Conservancy has distanced itself from PETA types, Green peace types and aligned itself more with hunters and fisherman. This is the only alliance that will achieve the goals. Trout Unlimited, Ducks etc. certainly do not represent the far Left, but the goals of these organizations would fall under the category of "environmental wackos" if you listen to the loudest voices of the Right (Limbaugh, Hannity etc.). These people, as well as PETA etc., are so uneducated they are a joke. Problem is they have great influence.
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Post by davdesid on Aug 21, 2009 13:04:34 GMT -8
Some of you folks (if you don't already know about it) might enjoy this publication by the Cal DFG (it's a bargain at 15 bucks a year): www.dfg.ca.gov/ocal/
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Post by davdesid on Aug 21, 2009 13:08:26 GMT -8
Pets die; it's a simple fact of life. It would be nice if they had 30 year lifespans but the don't, so it's something you live with by loving them to death and enjoying them while you have them. I like dogs but they're too high maintenance for me and, as my wife likes to say, cats are sources of never-ending entertainment. I'm hopeful that in a couple months we can get two male kittens - that will drive our two 10 year-old females nuts . Thanks for the answer on San Mateo - I couldn't remember which stream it was. =Bob I guess you either love cats or hate them. I am concerned now that we had to put our beloved Boxer down a couple days ago that neighborhood cats will be in our yard once again to kill all our western fence lizards and alligator lizards.... which of course keep our insect population down. People in general do not control their cats and they run roughshod through neighborhood bird and reptile populations. One house down the street is one of those "Adams Family" type houses.. very disheveled with about 10 cats on the loose. I cheer when I hear coyotes celebrating on the back hill over a cat snack. Well, there are always pros and cons when discussing cats being cats. I try to discourage my cat from catching birds, but she has been pretty good about catching and disposing of some of the hedge rats in the neighborhood. I cheer about that. You could get another dog, you know.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 21, 2009 13:56:30 GMT -8
I guess you either love cats or hate them. I am concerned now that we had to put our beloved Boxer down a couple days ago that neighborhood cats will be in our yard once again to kill all our western fence lizards and alligator lizards.... which of course keep our insect population down. People in general do not control their cats and they run roughshod through neighborhood bird and reptile populations. One house down the street is one of those "Adams Family" type houses.. very disheveled with about 10 cats on the loose. I cheer when I hear coyotes celebrating on the back hill over a cat snack. Well, there are always pros and cons when discussing cats being cats. I try to discourage my cat from catching birds, but she has been pretty good about catching and disposing of some of the hedge rats in the neighborhood. I cheer about that. You could get another dog, you know. Yea...it will take a while Sid. I am pretty broken up about the dog. Absolutely the best I ever had. Between my daughter and my wife.... the only male bonding I had around here!!
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Post by davdesid on Aug 21, 2009 14:11:15 GMT -8
Well, there are always pros and cons when discussing cats being cats. I try to discourage my cat from catching birds, but she has been pretty good about catching and disposing of some of the hedge rats in the neighborhood. I cheer about that. You could get another dog, you know. Yea...it will take a while Sid. I am pretty broken up about the dog. Absolutely the best I ever had. Between my daughter and my wife.... the only male bonding I had around here!! Ayyy... We lost our male German Shepherd dog two years ago this month. The tears were copious. But, we decided life would not be the same without a dog, so we got an 8 week old female GSD puppy. My daughter and wife picked her from a litter. She's not a true replacement...nothing could replace Zane. He was my best friend, too. I know the sentiment. But she's made her own place, and we love her very much. BTW, the cat gets along just fine with her, just as she did with Zane.
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 21, 2009 17:20:32 GMT -8
Pets die; it's a simple fact of life. It would be nice if they had 30 year lifespans but the don't, so it's something you live with by loving them to death and enjoying them while you have them. I like dogs but they're too high maintenance for me and, as my wife likes to say, cats are sources of never-ending entertainment. I'm hopeful that in a couple months we can get two male kittens - that will drive our two 10 year-old females nuts . Thanks for the answer on San Mateo - I couldn't remember which stream it was. =Bob I guess you either love cats or hate them. I am concerned now that we had to put our beloved Boxer down a couple days ago that neighborhood cats will be in our yard once again to kill all our western fence lizards and alligator lizards.... which of course keep our insect population down. People in general do not control their cats and they run roughshod through neighborhood bird and reptile populations. One house down the street is one of those "Adams Family" type houses.. very disheveled with about 10 cats on the loose. I cheer when I hear coyotes celebrating on the back hill over a cat snack. I think it was Jim Peugh who told me that he's tried to replicate a CSS habitat in his back yard and to that end, he traps neighborhood cats and then takes them to animal control to put down. That's pretty radical as far as I'm concerned. Cats on the loose are a problem and I see no problem with catching them and turning them over to animal control because if they're not neutered or spayed and are roaming, they are a problem and should be captured and spayed or neutered. But a couple of points on this. First, a couple years back a friends Boston terrier caught a possum in the enclosed patio and left a bloody mess when she tore the possum apart - from what he told me, there were guts all over the floor. And second, we've gone through the vilifying of cats in our past - read the "dark ages" - when cats were seen as the companions of witches and because they were wiped out on sight, the rats gained the upper hand and the Black Plague was given a much better chance of infecting people. With cats I have never had a problem with mice and rats in my house, no matter how close I've lived to canyons or sloughs. If I'd had a terrier (my breed of choice), I wouldn't have had the pleasure of a possum coming in the kitchen door every night for two years and watching him chow down on the cat food. And if I had a dog, most likely we'd be washing him down in tomato juice once every few months because we've got skunks and dogs are idiots when it comes to getting sprayed by skunks. They just stand there and keep barking while the skunk sprays all the Hell. =Bob
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 21, 2009 17:23:29 GMT -8
Well, there are always pros and cons when discussing cats being cats. I try to discourage my cat from catching birds, but she has been pretty good about catching and disposing of some of the hedge rats in the neighborhood. I cheer about that. You could get another dog, you know. Yea...it will take a while Sid. I am pretty broken up about the dog. Absolutely the best I ever had. Between my daughter and my wife.... the only male bonding I had around here!! Don't wait too long - it's a good thing to get a new puppy or kitten in the house. If you really want your hands full, get an Airedale. If you want less of a challenge but with the same attitude, get a Welsh terrier. Terriers are the best. =Bob
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 21, 2009 18:45:35 GMT -8
uwaztec, I could not agree more when it comes to the totally disjointed and convoluted issue of right/left, conservation/preservation, etc. Fellow hunters and anglers for the most part villify the Nature Conservancy as if it were Peta because they associate it with elimination of hunting and fishing. I then point out to them that I would not be able to fish Silver Creek in Idaho or the McCloud in the Shasta area had the Nature Conservancy not purchased that land. In the case of of Silver Creek, waterfowl hunting was permitted at that time as well. One of the really unfortunate things about many of my hunting friends is that they are so strongly aligned with the NRA that most if not all follow NRA rhetoric as gospel, which then draws them to the most conservative of positions on any contemporary political or social topic. Peta and Greenpeace are on one extreme and the NRA and Safari Club on another. Because they are all well-funded and highly visible, they control most of the debate while representing maybe 5-10% or at most 20% of the public on any single issue. The majority of anglers and/or hunters are then painted with the same broad brush as the NRA, just as Sierra Clubbers and Audubon folks are painted by many anglers and hunters with the same brush that includes Peta and Greenpeace. Unfortuantely, I think this is kind of typical in which the minority on the extremes of any issue hot-button issue control the political landscape and the debate.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 22, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -8
uwaztec, I could not agree more when it comes to the totally disjointed and convoluted issue of right/left, conservation/preservation, etc. Fellow hunters and anglers for the most part villify the Nature Conservancy as if it were Peta because they associate it with elimination of hunting and fishing. I then point out to them that I would not be able to fish Silver Creek in Idaho or the McCloud in the Shasta area had the Nature Conservancy not purchased that land. In the case of of Silver Creek, waterfowl hunting was permitted at that time as well. One of the really unfortunate things about many of my hunting friends is that they are so strongly aligned with the NRA that most if not all follow NRA rhetoric as gospel, which then draws them to the most conservative of positions on any contemporary political or social topic. Peta and Greenpeace are on one extreme and the NRA and Safari Club on another. Because they are all well-funded and highly visible, they control most of the debate while representing maybe 5-10% or at most 20% of the public on any single issue. The majority of anglers and/or hunters are then painted with the same broad brush as the NRA, just as Sierra Clubbers and Audubon folks are painted by many anglers and hunters with the same brush that includes Peta and Greenpeace. Unfortunately, I think this is kind of typical in which the minority on the extremes of any issue hot-button issue control the political landscape and the debate. If you read recent issues of TNC magazine, they are really pushing for alliance with hunters and fisherman. TNC and the sportsman both know that alliances like this are the only way to effectively preserve habitat. PETA and the anti preservationists are the problem and will have less to say if these alliances are strengthened. Side note, I have done some photographic assignments for TNC over the years when they still had pretty good budget for imagery.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 22, 2009 11:49:40 GMT -8
Yea...it will take a while Sid. I am pretty broken up about the dog. Absolutely the best I ever had. Between my daughter and my wife.... the only male bonding I had around here!! Don't wait too long - it's a good thing to get a new puppy or kitten in the house. If you really want your hands full, get an Airedale. If you want less of a challenge but with the same attitude, get a Welsh terrier. Terriers are the best. =Bob Bob, someone would have to put a gun to my head for me to get a cat. Many in the biology world dislike cats. Nothing is worse than a feral cat. I know 2 biologists who were in charge of cat eradication programs at Socorro Island and Clarion Island(Revillagigedos) and at the Los Coronados islands. Feral cats are murder on the habitat of islands. They have no predators and they can survive without water (north island Los Coronados). As for dogs, for better or worse because of tendency of health issues, we are Boxer people.
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Post by davdesid on Aug 22, 2009 14:09:34 GMT -8
>>Feral cats are murder on the habitat of islands.<< Well, sure, feral cats can be a problem, especially if they have been introduced into an environment unnaturally. But the same can be said about bunny rabbits. papahanaumokuakea.gov/visit/laysan.htmlI guess I'm just not right with the idea that anyone in the biology world would "dislike" any particular species, the necessities of predator control notwithstanding.
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 22, 2009 15:00:52 GMT -8
The brown tree snakes on Guam are another example of problems. www.fort.usgs.gov/resources/education/bts/invasion/history.aspI was stationed on Guam from 68-70 but never came into contact with one of these snakes. Shrews were a problem then but not the snakes yet. When I went back a couple times to works in the late 80s and early 90s the snakes had taken over. My experience was a little different than what this article says but maybe we just did not know or since we lived on the north end of the island the snakes might not have been there yet. I have also seen the remarkable recovery of two rivers and a mountain when pollution was stopped. The Ceder River in Washington and the Clarks Fork in Montana after Anaconda stopped polluting. Tea Kettle Mountain near Columbia Falls Montana was near bald from whatever was emitted from the Anaconda Aluminum Plant. It is now nearly recovered and all the wild life is back.
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