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Post by OCEOTL on Dec 6, 2010 10:30:58 GMT -8
It galls me that people call the healthcare bill OBAMACARE, after all the work Republicans put into the bill over the past few decades.
It's like giving someone credit for inventing the automobile just because they come up with a heated rearview mirror.
Now we hear OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE!
As the polls show an increase of approval for the bill over the years, Obama will get the credit for its passage.
Sorry affair!
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Dec 6, 2010 13:50:33 GMT -8
Simple fact of the matter is that everybody who was not a member of the "I've Goe Mine, So Fug You" club supported some form of socialized medicine to remove the two levels of care in the United States. (The two levels were: Medical Care and No Medical Care)
We now have fundamental care for the people and those who are so inclined can buy more if they want more. Good Democrats and Republicans all support this new level of care in the United States.
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Post by aztecwin on Dec 6, 2010 14:27:28 GMT -8
It galls me that people call the healthcare bill OBAMACARE, after all the work Republicans put into the bill over the past few decades. It's like giving someone credit for inventing the automobile just because they come up with a heated rearview mirror. Now we hear OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE! As the polls show an increase of approval for the bill over the years, Obama will get the credit for its passage. Sorry affair! Get used to the term "ObamaKare". It will be with us until it gets repealed and replaced or just defunded so that it dies a natural death. |
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Post by OCEOTL on Dec 6, 2010 15:01:36 GMT -8
... We now have fundamental care for the people and those who are so inclined can buy more if they want more. Good Democrats and Republicans all support this new level of care in the United States. Well that is comforting. I was afraid that if I had a heart attack, some government employee would show up to resuscitate me, making a big show with sirens and all. But you're saying that some things are above crass party politics. I'm still worried that this bill will eventually make Obama look good as more and more people agree with you. I guess no one will change his or her mind, but eventually some will pass on and younger people will take their place. |
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Dec 6, 2010 16:49:20 GMT -8
It galls me that people call the healthcare bill OBAMACARE, after all the work Republicans put into the bill over the past few decades. It's like giving someone credit for inventing the automobile just because they come up with a heated rearview mirror. Now we hear OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE, OBAMACARE! As the polls show an increase of approval for the bill over the years, Obama will get the credit for its passage. Sorry affair! Get used to the term "ObamaKare". It will be with us until it gets repealed and replaced or just defunded so that it dies a natural death. "Dies a natural death" Just like many of the people in the U.S. without healthcare.  |
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Post by davdesid on Dec 6, 2010 17:04:25 GMT -8
Get used to the term "ObamaKare". It will be with us until it gets repealed and replaced or just defunded so that it dies a natural death. "Dies a natural death" Just like many of the people in the U.S. without healthcare. Just like every swinging richard, with or without commie-care. Death is, after all, natural. No matter how you libs want to change it.  |
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Post by waztec on Dec 6, 2010 18:07:34 GMT -8
"Dies a natural death" Just like many of the people in the U.S. without healthcare. Just like every swinging richard, with or without commie-care. Death is, after all, natural. No matter how you libs want to change it. Death is less inevitable than your invective. |
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Post by OCEOTL on Dec 6, 2010 18:55:16 GMT -8
It's good to see people go on the record as to what is important to them.
This is what puzzles me: The idea that there were 'death panels', that illegals would benefit, and that the bill would encourage abortions were great short term politics, even though they didn't work.
Now some people will continue to believe these charges, but others will find out over the years that these three charges are without foundation.
Polls will more and more show people approve of OBAMACARE when they discover that they can keep their own physician. Since we have used this pejorative term OBAMACARE, he is going to get credit for the passage of this bill.
Is it fair to give him credit when Sen. Dole did so much to promote the same bill? Sure Obama put a new paint job on it and new tires, but why should he get all of the credit. That terrible term OBAMACARE! It will stand for history.
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Dec 7, 2010 6:47:04 GMT -8
It's good to see people go on the record as to what is important to them. This is what puzzles me: The idea that there were 'death panels', that illegals would benefit, and that the bill would encourage abortions were great short term politics, even though they didn't work. Now some people will continue to believe these charges, but others will find out over the years that these three charges are without foundation. The lies constantly propagated by the "I've Got Mine, So Fug You!" crowd are well known and as usual have been proven to just be lies piled upon more lies and lies on top of that. The IGM,SFU crowd have no morals, ethics or consideration for their fellow man. Eventually our medical care will just be called social medical care. Obama's name will be left out simply because we have been proposing social medical care for half a century. If there is any shame affixed to it, it would be that we waited so long to take a step in the right direction. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 8:01:10 GMT -8
Yeah, we really needed more socialized medicine in the U.S. Those Canadians defninitely know what they're doing when it comes to health care. When they can't get an appointment for that life threatening disease in a timely fashion (thanks to rationing) they just come to the U.S.
Oh, wait - if the U.S. goes the Canadian route what will the Canadians that can't get timely appointments do? Go to Mexico??
Americans certainly won't be able to go to Canada...
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Dec 7, 2010 8:17:37 GMT -8
Yeah, we really needed more socialized medicine in the U.S. Those Canadians defninitely know what they're doing when it comes to health care. When they can't get an appointment for that life threatening disease in a timely fashion (thanks to rationing) they just come to the U.S. Oh, wait - if the U.S. goes the Canadian route what will the Canadians that can't get timely appointments do? Go to Mexico?? Americans certainly won't be able to go to Canada... Garbage postulated is still garbage regardless of who postulates it. The simple fact of the matter is that Canada runs their system on a show string budget. If we want to run a socialized medicine program on a very tight budget we can. Just because Canada does it does not mean we have to follow in twain. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 8:39:34 GMT -8
We have too many people to effectively run socialized medicine. They have to ration it in smaller populated countries like Canada and the U.K. - people can't get doctor's appointments.
And when has our government EVER done anything efficiently or in a, "Customer friendly," way???
I would trust the government to kill people, but not to save lives of the sick or injured.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Dec 7, 2010 8:44:58 GMT -8
Yeah, we really needed more socialized medicine in the U.S. Those Canadians defninitely know what they're doing when it comes to health care. When they can't get an appointment for that life threatening disease in a timely fashion (thanks to rationing) they just come to the U.S. Oh, wait - if the U.S. goes the Canadian route what will the Canadians that can't get timely appointments do? Go to Mexico?? Americans certainly won't be able to go to Canada... A true single payer system is much more effecient and removes the 'greed' factor from healthcare. Greed of the insurance companies not the healthcare providers. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 8:50:16 GMT -8
Yeah, we really needed more socialized medicine in the U.S. Those Canadians defninitely know what they're doing when it comes to health care. When they can't get an appointment for that life threatening disease in a timely fashion (thanks to rationing) they just come to the U.S. Oh, wait - if the U.S. goes the Canadian route what will the Canadians that can't get timely appointments do? Go to Mexico?? Americans certainly won't be able to go to Canada... A true single payer system is much more effecient and removes the 'greed' factor from healthcare. Greed of the insurance companies not the healthcare providers. Funny thing, I have Kaiser - and it's a non profit. I wouldn't trade Kaiser for any other coverage. ESPECIALLY not the government. No one has ever been able to answer the question - What evidence is there that the government can do ANYTHING efficiently? What has the government EVER done that you'd say is a shining example of a customer friendly approach?? They know how to waste money and create MASSIVE bureaucratic middle managment. They know how to MISmanage just about everything they do. They know how to treat people like crap. (Ever try to get help from the government? They either treat you like an insignificant, unimportant flea or like a criminal.) Kaiser is the kind of provider that should be encouraged, not put out of business. |
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Post by OCEOTL on Dec 7, 2010 8:54:41 GMT -8
I worked for DHS/DOS after 9/11 in Toronto and also on the Canadian border in Alaska. Newcomers believed the bad press about Canadian healthcare at first. Long termers switched to Canadian healthcare to save the trip to Buffalo.
Non-life-threatening problems may have a delay, but no delay for anything serious. Any American can cross the border and get an appointment and a prescription without notice within an hour for $60.00. That's what Palin did.
The occasional case of a Canadian coming to the U.S. is publicized endlessly.
But then my personal experience is not as noteworthy as someone else's 'wanna believe.'
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 9:11:27 GMT -8
I worked for DHS/DOS after 9/11 in Toronto and also on the Canadian border in Alaska. Newcomers believed the bad press about Canadian healthcare at first. Long termers switched to Canadian healthcare to save the trip to Buffalo. Non-life-threatening problems may have a delay, but no delay for anything serious. Any American can cross the border and get an appointment and a prescription without notice within an hour for $60.00. That's what Palin did. The occasional case of a Canadian coming to the U.S. is publicized endlessly. But then my personal experience is not as noteworthy as someone else's 'wanna believe.' So if I get sick, but it's not, "Serious," or life threatening then not being able to get a doctor's appointment isn't a big deal? What if I have a painful condition that is somewhat debilitating, but isn't even the slightest bit, "Life threatening?" Under Canada's plan I may have to wait upwards of six months or longer to get an appointment. Under my Kaiser plan I only have to wait a week or two - assuming I can't get a same day appointment (which I'm usually able to do). Why in the world would I want the government to step in and shut Kaiser down and replace it with a Canadian type system??? And yet again a pro-socialized medicine believer cannot give us any example of the government doing things efficiently or in a customer friendly manner. BLIND FAITH is what they call it. You have no evidence whatsoever that our government can do anything but a bad job with health care, but in a gamble for socialized medicine utopia you're willing to take that risk. I'm not. |
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Dec 7, 2010 9:49:30 GMT -8
A true single payer system is much more efficient and removes the 'greed' factor from healthcare. Greed of the insurance companies not the healthcare providers. Funny thing, I have Kaiser - and it's a non profit. I wouldn't trade Kaiser for any other coverage. ESPECIALLY not the government. No one has ever been able to answer the question - What evidence is there that the government can do ANYTHING efficiently? What has the government EVER done that you'd say is a shining example of a customer friendly approach?? They know how to waste money and create MASSIVE bureaucratic middle management. They know how to MISmanage just about everything they do. They know how to treat people like crap. (Ever try to get help from the government? They either treat you like an insignificant, unimportant flea or like a criminal.) Kaiser is the kind of provider that should be encouraged, not put out of business. Agree with you 100% on Kaiser. They are the model for socialized medicine in the US. They make it work by rationing care and access to caregivers. Kaiser uses an extensive workforce made up of nurse practitioners and physician assistants. Not everyone needs to see a doctor, especially for routine things. You only get bumped to an doctor if needed. This is the same model as the VA is using. Kaiser is the socialized medicine model that should be implemented in the US. Heck, give them the contract. No problem with that. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 10:02:23 GMT -8
Funny thing, I have Kaiser - and it's a non profit. I wouldn't trade Kaiser for any other coverage. ESPECIALLY not the government. No one has ever been able to answer the question - What evidence is there that the government can do ANYTHING efficiently? What has the government EVER done that you'd say is a shining example of a customer friendly approach?? They know how to waste money and create MASSIVE bureaucratic middle management. They know how to MISmanage just about everything they do. They know how to treat people like crap. (Ever try to get help from the government? They either treat you like an insignificant, unimportant flea or like a criminal.) Kaiser is the kind of provider that should be encouraged, not put out of business. Agree with you 100% on Kaiser. They are the model for socialized medicine in the US. They make it work by rationing care and access to caregivers. Kaiser uses an extensive workforce made up of nurse practitioners and physician assistants. Not everyone needs to see a doctor, especially for routine things. You only get bumped to an doctor if needed. This is the same model as the VA is using. Kaiser is the socialized medicine model that should be implemented in the US. Heck, give them the contract. No problem with that. Kaiser is NOT socialized medicine. And, for the record, I have NEVER had a problem getting a doctor's appointment. And I've seen actual doctors, not nurse practitioners. Kaiser is a well run organization. The government is not. The government couldn't run health care as well as Kaiser could even if their lives depended on it. |
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Post by OCEOTL on Dec 7, 2010 11:58:25 GMT -8
I prefer my us government subsidized retirement insurance and medicare to the canadian system.
Nobody has made me leave my choice of physician for a Kenyan Witch Doctor. My insurance is the same as many of the members of congress.
Criticizing Canadian health is a straw man. It has nothing to do with our system.
But the Canadians prefer their system, that's why they have it. Duh! How does one determine this? For me it is talking to individual Canadians. For you? Well you know they haven't dispensed with it. Canadians don't have the massive political disinformation industry that the U.S. has. The Government is more responsive to the people's will.
We have built-in delay and 'concurrent majority' protection which allows lobbyists with money to help obfuscate and fear-monger.
Remember Canadians are very polite. If you ask a Canadian in the U.S., they will praise everyting about the U.S. system. Like praising a meal provided by your host at a party whether good or bad.
I know, polite means weak. Strong is yelling and frantic name-calling. AKA: bitching.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Dec 7, 2010 12:29:19 GMT -8
And still no one gives any examples of how our government does ANYTHING efficiently or with a good customer service attitude.
The government just spends a lot of money. They don't do it wisely or efficiently, and government agencies are a pain in the ass to deal with.
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