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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 24, 2020 14:57:28 GMT -8
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Post by aztecmusician on Aug 24, 2020 20:09:56 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives.
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Post by 84aztec96 on Aug 25, 2020 15:29:05 GMT -8
Good article, thanks for posting.
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Sept 2, 2020 6:53:07 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. True, but I'd credit the seizure of Henderson field on Guadalcanal more than Midway for that. For those that don't know, Japan was constructing a new air base in the South Pacific from which to launch new offensives. The Americans discovered the almost complete air base but instead of destroying it they sent the Marines in to capture it. The Japanese Navy was still plenty badass and the Marines sitting on the airfield watched the Japanese Navy almost completely wipe out the American Navy in the area at the Battle of Savo Island. The Japanese who occupied nearly every square inch of Guadalcanal except for the air field attacked and attacked and attacked the Marines with numerically superior forces only for the Marines time after time to hold their newly won prize (and finish building the airfield). Finally the Americans got in enough reinforcement to take the whole island, and from that new air base started an unending march toward Japan. What Midway did, and the Battle of Coral Sea before it, was drive home that WWII's most effective sea weapon platform was the Aircraft Carrier. Japan had built for war thinking the Battleship was still king as was the case in WWI. They took out Pearl Harbor because that was where the US battleships were. Japan built the biggest battleships in history in the Yamato and Musashi, then had to hide them all war long so the US aircraft didn't blow them out of the water. |
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Post by azson on Sept 2, 2020 12:02:35 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. True, but I'd credit the seizure of Henderson field on Guadalcanal more than Midway for that. For those that don't know, Japan was constructing a new air base in the South Pacific from which to launch new offensives. The Americans discovered the almost complete air base but instead of destroying it they sent the Marines in to capture it. The Japanese Navy was still plenty badass and the Marines sitting on the airfield watched the Japanese Navy almost completely wipe out the American Navy in the area at the Battle of Savo Island. The Japanese who occupied nearly every square inch of Guadalcanal except for the air field attacked and attacked and attacked the Marines with numerically superior forces only for the Marines time after time to hold their newly won prize (and finish building the airfield). Finally the Americans got in enough reinforcement to take the whole island, and from that new air base started an unending march toward Japan. What Midway did, and the Battle of Coral Sea before it, was drive home that WWII's most effective sea weapon platform was the Aircraft Carrier. Japan had built for war thinking the Battleship was still king as was the case in WWI. They took out Pearl Harbor because that was where the US battleships were. Japan built the biggest battleships in history in the Yamato and Musashi, then had to hide them all war long so the US aircraft didn't blow them out of the water. And for those that haven't seen it check out The Thin Red Line, Terrence Malick's best film IMHO. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 10, 2020 10:41:44 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. True, but I'd credit the seizure of Henderson field on Guadalcanal more than Midway for that. For those that don't know, Japan was constructing a new air base in the South Pacific from which to launch new offensives. The Americans discovered the almost complete air base but instead of destroying it they sent the Marines in to capture it. The Japanese Navy was still plenty badass and the Marines sitting on the airfield watched the Japanese Navy almost completely wipe out the American Navy in the area at the Battle of Savo Island. The Japanese who occupied nearly every square inch of Guadalcanal except for the air field attacked and attacked and attacked the Marines with numerically superior forces only for the Marines time after time to hold their newly won prize (and finish building the airfield). Finally the Americans got in enough reinforcement to take the whole island, and from that new air base started an unending march toward Japan. What Midway did, and the Battle of Coral Sea before it, was drive home that WWII's most effective sea weapon platform was the Aircraft Carrier. Japan had built for war thinking the Battleship was still king as was the case in WWI. They took out Pearl Harbor because that was where the US battleships were. Japan built the biggest battleships in history in the Yamato and Musashi, then had to hide them all war long so the US aircraft didn't blow them out of the water. Can't agree on this one. If the Japs had lost only 2 flattops in the battle and we had lost 2 (of 3), the former would have captured Midway Island and likely could have invaded Hawaii. We would then have found ourselves in very deep horse manure. Instead, the guts were torn out of the Japanese carrier forces, both ships and trained aircrew. They never recovered. Soon the Essex class carriers were coming on line, plus hundreds of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and other ships. AzWm |
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Sept 10, 2020 12:14:13 GMT -8
True, but I'd credit the seizure of Henderson field on Guadalcanal more than Midway for that. For those that don't know, Japan was constructing a new air base in the South Pacific from which to launch new offensives. The Americans discovered the almost complete air base but instead of destroying it they sent the Marines in to capture it. The Japanese Navy was still plenty badass and the Marines sitting on the airfield watched the Japanese Navy almost completely wipe out the American Navy in the area at the Battle of Savo Island. The Japanese who occupied nearly every square inch of Guadalcanal except for the air field attacked and attacked and attacked the Marines with numerically superior forces only for the Marines time after time to hold their newly won prize (and finish building the airfield). Finally the Americans got in enough reinforcement to take the whole island, and from that new air base started an unending march toward Japan. What Midway did, and the Battle of Coral Sea before it, was drive home that WWII's most effective sea weapon platform was the Aircraft Carrier. Japan had built for war thinking the Battleship was still king as was the case in WWI. They took out Pearl Harbor because that was where the US battleships were. Japan built the biggest battleships in history in the Yamato and Musashi, then had to hide them all war long so the US aircraft didn't blow them out of the water. Can't agree on this one. If the Japs had lost only flattops in the battle and we had lost 2 (of 3), the former would have captured Midway Island and likely could have invaded Hawaii. We would then have found ourselves in very deep horse manure. Instead, the guts were torn out of the Japanese carrier forces, both ships and trained aircrew. They never recovered. Soon the Essex class carriers were coming on line, plus hundreds of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and other ships. AzWm As far as I understand the Japanese never wanted Hawaii. They only wanted us out of the Philippines. Regarding Midway, remember there was no invasion force with the Kido Butai. Midway was supposed to be bait in a trap for us. The Japanese Navy had their monster battleship Yamato along with enough submarines to practically walk from Pearl Harbor to Midway lying in wait. They just got into position 24 hours too late. The idea was for the Japanese planes from the carrier group to strike Midway, have Midway call to Pearl for help, and for the Americans to speed out towards Midway only to be ambushed enroute by the main force of the Japanese Navy. The true goal of Imperial Japan was to capture the Dutch East Indies with its oil and iron. Japan needed the Americans out of the Philippines to keep America from using those naval bases to cut off the shipping lanes between the Dutch East Indies and Japan. Japan knew they couldn’t win a protracted war against the Americans. Their strategy was to knock out the American Navy to the point that it couldn’t reestablish control in the Philippines and Japan would quickly sue for peace hoping the Americans would give up the Philippines to focus on their war in Europe. Japan underestimated how pissed off and aggressive the Americans were. It is just a guess, but I think if the Midway trap had worked the Japanese would have sent a peace delegation with an offer to withdraw completely behind the International Date Line and end hostilities with the Americans. There is no chance FDR would have accepted the offer and it all would have ended the same but it would have been bloodier because it would have allowed maybe another year for Japan to fortify every rock in the South Pacific. Midway was a key piece in how things played out but our taking of Guadalcanal was where Japan’s expansion ended. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 10, 2020 17:45:39 GMT -8
Had the Japs won at Midway, they would have been colossal fools NOT to have taken Hawaii. As you say, no Japanese peace initiative would have been accepted the U.S. with Hawaii still in our hands. If Hawaii had been occupied, probably no peace initiative would have been accepted either, but the cost of winning the war would have been orders of magnitude harder. Hell, with their carriers mostly intact, what would have prevented them from raiding California?
AzWm
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Sept 11, 2020 8:57:26 GMT -8
Had the Japs won at Midway, they would have been colossal fools NOT to have taken Hawaii. As you say, no Japanese peace initiative would have been accepted the U.S. with Hawaii still in our hands. If Hawaii had been occupied, probably no peace initiative would have been accepted either, but the cost of winning the war would have been orders of magnitude harder. Hell, with their carriers mostly intact, what would have prevented them from raiding California? AzWm Japan didn't have the available manpower to pull off an invasion of Hawaii. Yamamoto didn't even think they had enough manpower to secure the desperately required oil fields and rubber plantations in the Dutch East Indies while at the same time fighting the Americans at sea. That lack of manpower was the motivation for the Pearl Harbor sneak attack. |
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Post by aztecmusician on Oct 14, 2020 10:56:51 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. True, but I'd credit the seizure of Henderson field on Guadalcanal more than Midway for that. For those that don't know, Japan was constructing a new air base in the South Pacific from which to launch new offensives. The Americans discovered the almost complete air base but instead of destroying it they sent the Marines in to capture it. The Japanese Navy was still plenty badass and the Marines sitting on the airfield watched the Japanese Navy almost completely wipe out the American Navy in the area at the Battle of Savo Island. The Japanese who occupied nearly every square inch of Guadalcanal except for the air field attacked and attacked and attacked the Marines with numerically superior forces only for the Marines time after time to hold their newly won prize (and finish building the airfield). Finally the Americans got in enough reinforcement to take the whole island, and from that new air base started an unending march toward Japan. What Midway did, and the Battle of Coral Sea before it, was drive home that WWII's most effective sea weapon platform was the Aircraft Carrier. Japan had built for war thinking the Battleship was still king as was the case in WWI. They took out Pearl Harbor because that was where the US battleships were. Japan built the biggest battleships in history in the Yamato and Musashi, then had to hide them all war long so the US aircraft didn't blow them out of the water. While Guadalcanal was a very important battle, Midway was the turning point in the Pacific. A decisive Japanese victory would have been disastrous and meant the probable loss of Hawaii along with the West Coast being menaced by the Imperial Japanese Fleet. Imagine San Francisco, Seattle, San Diego being bombed. True, the Marines proved their mettle at Guadalcanal. They were left there with minimal supplies and they held the airbase against very long odds. Neither side wanted to give up control of the island. While Midway was over in a few hours, Guadalcanal Canal lasted 5 months. |
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Oct 14, 2020 13:03:01 GMT -8
While Guadalcanal was a very important battle, Midway was the turning point in the Pacific. A decisive Japanese victory would have been disastrous and meant the probable loss of Hawaii along with the West Coast being menaced by the Imperial Japanese Fleet. Imagine San Francisco, Seattle, San Diego being bombed. True, the Marines proved their mettle at Guadalcanal. They were left there with minimal supplies and they held the airbase against very long odds. Neither side wanted to give up control of the island. While Midway was over in a few hours, Guadalcanal Canal lasted 5 months. Hawaii was never in any danger. The Japanese never had the resources to take both Hawaii and the Dutch East Indies. They aren’t that big. Japan could take one or the other only, and there are no natural resources in Hawaii. The Dutch East Indies have oil, iron, and rubber among other resources the Japanese desperately needed. The Dutch East Indies were always the goal. The only reason the Japanese hit us in WWII at all was because of the bases we built in the Philippines in the 50 years since the Spanish-American War. Those bases were in the perfect position to cut the supply lines between Japan and the Dutch East Indies. Japan had to take them out, and they needed time to do it so they hit Pearl Harbor to cripple our ability to reinforce or retake the Philippine bases. The attack on Midway wasn’t for eastward expansion. The Japanese had no landing force, no troops other than sailors and airmen within thousands of miles of Midway. The entirety of the Japanese Imperial Army was in the Philippines and Dutch East Indies in mid-1942. The attack on Midway was nothing but bait to draw our carriers into a trap. The taking of Henderson Field at Guadalcanal only a few months after Midway tells you how thin the Japanese had spread themselves. The US Marines walked right on to the airfield. This was Japan’s brand new airfield, barely 600 miles from the Rabaul base anchoring their Dutch East Indies prize, and the Japanese didn’t have the manpower necessary to station anyone on Henderson Field. When I hear the prediction that if the American has lost at Midway that Japan would have taken Hawaii I want to ask where the Japanese troops would come from. Where would Japan get a landing force big enough to take the US militarized Hawaii? The Japanese couldn’t even remove the 11,000 Americans from the Henderson airfield when the Japanese held 90% of the surrounding island the field was located on, had numerical superiority, and a fully capable resupply line from a nearby base. If they couldn’t do that, how would they possibly take Hawaii with 10 times that many soldiers? What we got by not losing at Midway was that we didn’t lose 2 aircraft carriers. What we got at Guadalcanal was a foothold in a location that turned the tide in the war. I'd even rank the battle for Saipan as being more important than Midway. The Premier, General Tojo, and the cabinet were all removed from power after losing Saipan while the Americans set about firebombing Tokyo from there before ultimately using it to drop 2 atomic bombs to end the war. Saipan was key. Guadalcanal was key. The Midway Island did lots of nothing after the battle. |
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Post by azson on Jan 9, 2022 9:10:51 GMT -8
I found an excellent 3-part YouTube series, told from the Japanese perspective, complete with fog of war animation, i.e. the viewer sees and hears everything the Japanese did, w/o foreknowledge of where the U.S. forces are located - specifically Nagumo's Dilemma is explained in fine detail: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo |
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Post by aztecmusician on Jan 17, 2022 2:53:27 GMT -8
This hasn’t been mentioned yet in the thread, but the absolute key to victory at Midway was the intelligence provided by Station HYPO which gave Admiral Nimitz the vital information needed to set the trap. Without the element of surprise, there is a very good chance The Japanese Navy and the Kido Butai win the engagement. The Japanese had better planes, ships, a numerical ship advantage and the best carrier pilots in the world.
The US Navy did have three advantages over the Japanese: The aforementioned intelligence edge, better damage control capabilities and radar systems.
And yes, the whole point for the Japanese was to take control of Hawaii and use that as a base to menace West Coast cities, (especially towns with active shipyards and the vital Panama Canal) and leverage the US Government for peace and concessions of territory and resources.
The victory at Midway was comprehensive and has been compared to historical battles such as Salamis and Trafalgar in terms of strategic implications, The Japanese were forced to call off planned invasions of New Caldonia, Fiji and Samoa….they lost the initiative in the Pacific and never got it back.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 10, 2022 14:01:39 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. More or less true, but we should not forget that there was terrific fighting in the Solomon Islands in 1942 and 1943. Our naval forces lost many ships, both carriers and cruisers. Clearly, Japan was never in a position to defeat the U.S.A., yet they had enough assets to make the Solomon Islands campaign a bloody one. Here's something about WWII that I just learned very recently. Ever hear of the USS Robin? Well, here's the story. We lost four large aircraft carriers in 1942; the Lexington, the Yorktown, the Hornet, and the Wasp. That left us with few flattops. As of January 1st, 1943, we had only the Saratoga, the Enterprise, the Ranger, and the Essex. And the Essex had just been commissioned. And let's not forget that those for ships had to cover all the oceans of the world. The USA asked (I wonder if begged would be a better word.  ) the UK to lend us a flattop. The Brits did. HMS Victorious was refitted on our East Coast, then sailed to the Pacific through the Panama Canal. She fought along side our only operational carrier in the Pacific, the Saratoga, through 1943 before returning to Europe. (She returned to the Western Pacific with other British ships to fight against Japan in 1945.) While fighting with us in '43, the Victorious was referred to as the USS Robin. I've been studying WWWII very seriously since the early '50s and just learned about the "USS Robbin" in the past year. Just shows you that there is always more to learn. AzWm |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 10, 2022 14:41:53 GMT -8
I should add that in 1943, a veritable tidal wave of new ships, including many aircraft carriers were commissioned in 1943 by the USA. Japan, though they did try, could not come close to replacing the carriers they had lost. Even more so, they could not replace the air crew that were killed early in the war.
After '43, we did not need any more Royal Navy loaners.
AzWm
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 21, 2023 13:37:30 GMT -8
Can't agree on this one. If the Japs had lost only flattops in the battle and we had lost 2 (of 3), the former would have captured Midway Island and likely could have invaded Hawaii. We would then have found ourselves in very deep horse manure. Instead, the guts were torn out of the Japanese carrier forces, both ships and trained aircrew. They never recovered. Soon the Essex class carriers were coming on line, plus hundreds of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and other ships. AzWm As far as I understand the Japanese never wanted Hawaii. They only wanted us out of the Philippines. Regarding Midway, remember there was no invasion force with the Kido Butai. Midway was supposed to be bait in a trap for us. The Japanese Navy had their monster battleship Yamato along with enough submarines to practically walk from Pearl Harbor to Midway lying in wait. They just got into position 24 hours too late. The idea was for the Japanese planes from the carrier group to strike Midway, have Midway call to Pearl for help, and for the Americans to speed out towards Midway only to be ambushed enroute by the main force of the Japanese Navy. The true goal of Imperial Japan was to capture the Dutch East Indies with its oil and iron. Japan needed the Americans out of the Philippines to keep America from using those naval bases to cut off the shipping lanes between the Dutch East Indies and Japan. Japan knew they couldn’t win a protracted war against the Americans. Their strategy was to knock out the American Navy to the point that it couldn’t reestablish control in the Philippines and Japan would quickly sue for peace hoping the Americans would give up the Philippines to focus on their war in Europe. Japan underestimated how pissed off and aggressive the Americans were. It is just a guess, but I think if the Midway trap had worked the Japanese would have sent a peace delegation with an offer to withdraw completely behind the International Date Line and end hostilities with the Americans. There is no chance FDR would have accepted the offer and it all would have ended the same but it would have been bloodier because it would have allowed maybe another year for Japan to fortify every rock in the South Pacific. Midway was a key piece in how things played out but our taking of Guadalcanal was where Japan’s expansion ended.
Midway Occupation Force (Rear Adm. Raizo Tanaka)
Transport Group carrying about 5000 troops under Capt. Minoru Ōta IJN and Colonel Kiyonao Ichiki IJA
Transports:
Kiyosumi Maru (Capt. Seiichiro Kito)
Keiyo Maru (Capt. Masamichi Ikeuchi)
Zenyo Maru
Goshu Maru (Capt. Hiyoshi Furuya)
Toa Maru No. 2 Go
Kano Maru (Capt. Tomosaburo Miura)
Argentina Maru (Cmdr. Takeshi Watanabe)
Hokuroku Maru (Capt. Hiotaro Tsukagoshi)
Brazil Maru (Capt. Kyujiro Jintsu)
Kirishima Maru (Capt. Hiroshi Okubo)
Azuma Maru (Capt. Nobuyoshi Morikawa)
Nankai Maru (Capt. Akira Maki)
Here is another quote that refers to the invasion of Midway.
Yamamoto's view, the capture of Midway would allow Japan to pursue its Asian policies behind an impregnable eastern shield of defenses in the Central Pacific. The centerpiece of this plan was a feint toward Alaska followed by the invasion of Midway. The U.S. Pacific Fleet was expected to respond to the landings on Midway.
www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1942/midway.html
AzWm
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Post by Den60 on Jun 22, 2023 11:46:09 GMT -8
After the victory at Midway, the US Navy had the initiative for the rest of the war. There were no more Japanese offensives. Yamamoto told his superiors he could wreak havoc in the Pacific for a year and a half, but after that the US production capabilities would give us a huge advantage. Midway, shortened that timeline significantly. The Japanese were so far ahead of us as far as modern ships at the beginning of the war. One other problems was their aircraft. While the Zero was a great dogfighter, it wasn't built to be survivable if hit. They couldn't train pilots fast enough to keep up with America. |
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) the UK to lend us a flattop. The Brits did. HMS Victorious was refitted on our East Coast, then sailed to the Pacific through the Panama Canal. She fought along side our only operational carrier in the Pacific, the Saratoga, through 1943 before returning to Europe. (She returned to the Western Pacific with other British ships to fight against Japan in 1945.) While fighting with us in '43, the Victorious was referred to as the USS Robin.