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Post by AztecWilliam on Jan 28, 2020 18:20:49 GMT -8
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jan 28, 2020 18:27:18 GMT -8
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Post by azson on Jan 29, 2020 11:57:36 GMT -8
Apologies in advance for whataboutism, but have we honestly faced the hundreds of thousands of civilians we’re responsible for in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and other WW2 carpet bombings? |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 12, 2020 0:13:44 GMT -8
Apologies in advance for whataboutism, but have we honestly faced the hundreds of thousands of civilians we’re responsible for in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and other WW2 carpet bombings? You cannot be serious! It was a war we did not start, and when faced with an evil enemy that would have destroyed us if they have been able to do so, basically nothing was off the table. As far as the atomic bombings, we killed more Japanese in the fire bombings of Tokyo than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why do you think Sherman said that war is hell? Yes, you can make a case that the bombing of Dresden was not necessary. One can also make a case for it. It's easy to criticize a particular action taken during war from the cozy perspective of hindsight. As for the Japanese, numerous battles in the Pacific indicated that they would never willingly give up. They would fight to last man. . . or woman, or child, for that matter. I trust you are familiar with what our guys faced on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Sober planners in our military anticipated with dread what US forces would have faced had an invasion of the home Islands been attempted. Just look up Operation Downfall and consider the scale of US casualties anticipated had that action taken place. The Wikipedia article on Downfall should be required reading for all those who think we were wrong to use atomic weapons against Japan. AzWm PS: The internment of Japanese/American citizens on the West Coast was clearly out of line, and some said so at the time. It was a popular move generally, but still a grave injustice. There has never been an attempt to make excuses for it, and we rightly paid reparations. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 13, 2020 10:57:13 GMT -8
Here is another thought about the use of the atomic bomb against Japan. Some say it was racist. (Nonsense on the face of it. There is just one race on this planet, the human race!)
Let's say that Germany had successfully repelled the D-day landings. If the Germans had therefore been able to move most of their western front troops east, there could have been a stalemate with the Russians. Summer 1945 would have seen the war dragging on and on.
Well, let me assure you that we definitely would have dropped an A-bomb on Berlin. And, if by some incredible circumstances the Italians had blocked our invasion of Sicily, we would have dropped on Rome, too.
AzWm
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Post by aztecmusician on Feb 13, 2020 22:40:07 GMT -8
The Soviets and communists definitely wanted to annex part of the Japanese Islands creating a North South Japan much like East and West Germany. They already had an army group poised in Manchuria to land on Hokkaido and Honshu. The A-Bomb made them think twice about that.
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Post by azson on Feb 14, 2020 12:03:57 GMT -8
Apologies in advance for whataboutism, but have we honestly faced the hundreds of thousands of civilians we’re responsible for in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and other WW2 carpet bombings? You cannot be serious! It was a war we did not start, and when faced with an evil enemy that would have destroyed us if they have been able to do so, basically nothing was off the table. As far as the atomic bombings, we killed more Japanese in the fire bombings of Tokyo than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why do you think Sherman said that war is hell? Yes, you can make a case that the bombing of Dresden was not necessary. One can also make a case for it. It's easy to criticize a particular action taken during war from the cozy perspective of hindsight. As for the Japanese, numerous battles in the Pacific indicated that they would never willingly give up. They would fight to last man. . . or woman, or child, for that matter. I trust you are familiar with what our guys faced on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Sober planners in our military anticipated with dread what US forces would have faced had an invasion of the home Islands been attempted. Just look up Operation Downfall and consider the scale of US casualties anticipated had that action taken place. The Wikipedia article on Downfall should be required reading for all those who think we were wrong to use atomic weapons against Japan. AzWm PS: The internment of Japanese/American citizens on the West Coast was clearly out of line, and some said so at the time. It was a popular move generally, but still a grave injustice. There has never been an attempt to make excuses for it, and we rightly paid reparations. So if I'm reading you correctly: atrocious/terrorist acts by Japan in WW2 warrant contrition, but done by the U.S. - "War is hell" |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 14, 2020 12:27:51 GMT -8
The Soviets and communists definitely wanted to annex part of the Japanese Islands creating a North South Japan much like East and West Germany. They already had an army group poised in Manchuria to land on Hokkaido and Honshu. The A-Bomb made them think twice about that. Good points. The key point here is to reject the Leftist charge that we committed a war crime by using nukes against Japan. From the perspective of the U.S. government in 1945, it appeared inevitable that the Japanese would never surrender. An invasion of the home islands would have resulted in hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of casualties. (I will again remind readers to the casualty estimates mentioned in Operation Downfall.) It's easy to criticize decisions made in the heat of war when you are looking back 75 years. There is something about nuclear energy that drives the Left nuts. It goes far beyond justifiable safety concerns. Why do they decry Hiroshima and Nagasaki so much, yet say little or nothing about our fire bomb raids on Tokyo? Once you start condemning weapons, where do you stop? Some want to ban land mines, but do those same people say anything against flame throwers? Again, we should remember Sherman's statement about war. AzWm PS: I keep waiting for the Left to decide that the U.S.A. bombed Pear Harbor. I would have thought this idea crazy a few years ago, but maybe it's not so crazy now. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 14, 2020 13:12:15 GMT -8
You cannot be serious! It was a war we did not start, and when faced with an evil enemy that would have destroyed us if they have been able to do so, basically nothing was off the table. As far as the atomic bombings, we killed more Japanese in the fire bombings of Tokyo than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why do you think Sherman said that war is hell? Yes, you can make a case that the bombing of Dresden was not necessary. One can also make a case for it. It's easy to criticize a particular action taken during war from the cozy perspective of hindsight. As for the Japanese, numerous battles in the Pacific indicated that they would never willingly give up. They would fight to last man. . . or woman, or child, for that matter. I trust you are familiar with what our guys faced on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Sober planners in our military anticipated with dread what US forces would have faced had an invasion of the home Islands been attempted. Just look up Operation Downfall and consider the scale of US casualties anticipated had that action taken place. The Wikipedia article on Downfall should be required reading for all those who think we were wrong to use atomic weapons against Japan. AzWm PS: The internment of Japanese/American citizens on the West Coast was clearly out of line, and some said so at the time. It was a popular move generally, but still a grave injustice. There has never been an attempt to make excuses for it, and we rightly paid reparations. So if I'm reading you correctly: atrocious/terrorist acts by Japan in WW2 warrant contrition, but done by the U.S. - "War is hell" You completely miss the point. Keep in mind that war was started, officially, by Japan and a couple of day later by Germany, not by us. Is it a terrorist act to drop bombs on an enemy's industrial targets, bombs that we knew would inevitably result in at least some civilian casualties? That would have seemed totally unreasonable to the vast majority of Americans, Brits, and Russians in WWII. ( I doubt the majority of Americans, Brits, and Russians today would feel much differently.) Germany can bomb Coventry but we cannot bomb Essen because we might kill civilians, is that it? (It's well to remember that many the civilians killed by the U.S. Air Force and the RAF were actively engaged in making arms that were killing our guys.) One can certainly condemn the Russians for the atrocities they committed in East Germany in the closing days of the war and thereafter. After raping tens of thousands of German women and young girls, the Russians basically grabbed everything of value and took it back to the Motherland. The Western Allies, on the other hand, fed starving Germans and helped Germany rebuild its economy. You do remember the Candy Bombers, don't you? AzWm |
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