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Post by AzTex on Mar 16, 2018 17:28:30 GMT -8
I am starting to think that I completely wasted my time in creating this thread. I'm not mainly complaining about the numerous attempts (successful ones, I'm sorry to say) to hijack the thread. No, I refer to the fact that many responses missed the point. I'll try one more time. My main objection is to the whining that so many fans engage in. One has to wonder whether, if we had won the nation championship, some might have complained that our margin of victory in the championship game had been too narrow. Too many people seem to think that we should have done much better than we did, that we should have beaten Houston easily, etc., etc. Pope? A real disappointment. Should have handled his defensive maneuver on Houston's last basket better. How about coach Dutcher? Well, obviously he did not motivate the team sufficiently. Let's be realistic. This is not Don Coryell's team of the sixties playing Cal Poly or the University of Redlands. This is the 21st Century Aztec basketball team, playing in much tougher company. In the last several years we have been playing against schools that are not patsies. I'm thinking of Arizona, Kansas, Gonzaga, UCLA, Nevada, New Mexico, Boise State, UNLV, etc. We've been good enough to have beaten every one of those schools at least once; on the other hand, we have also lost to every one of them (except UCLA) at least once. Nowhere is it written that we should win every game. Or even most games against strong opponents. In the 1991-1992 season the Aztec mean's bb team won exactly TWO games. From '92 through '99 we won a total of 77 games, an average of fewer than 10 wins a season. Even Steve Fisher's first season was dismal, with 5 wins, none in conference. No need to recapitulate what has transpired on the hardwood since then. In short, my point is as follows. By all means let's hope for a better season next year. But let's also give credit where credit is due. Before Steve Fisher arrived, there could not have been many DI basketball programs worse than that of San Diego State. No longer do we have to apologize for Aztec basketball. We aren't Kansas, or Duke, or North Carolina, but nationally there as a reasonable measure of respect for this program. I feel really good about what the team accomplished this year. We should be proud of the team and not waste time making petty complaints about how Malik Pope should have handled his defensive assignment differently. Or why Trey Kell, playing injured, didn't light up the scoreboard. It's easy to criticize when you are in the stands. My guess is that there are not many former DI basketball stars posting on this site. AzWm Well said. I just wish there were more people who understood this. |
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Post by Spud on Mar 16, 2018 20:50:07 GMT -8
I am starting to think that I completely wasted my time in creating this thread. I'm not mainly complaining about the numerous attempts (successful ones, I'm sorry to say) to hijack the thread. No, I refer to the fact that many responses missed the point. I'll try one more time. My main objection is to the whining that so many fans engage in. One has to wonder whether, if we had won the nation championship, some might have complained that our margin of victory in the championship game had been too narrow. Too many people seem to think that we should have done much better than we did, that we should have beaten Houston easily, etc., etc. Pope? A real disappointment. Should have handled his defensive maneuver on Houston's last basket better. How about coach Dutcher? Well, obviously he did not motivate the team sufficiently. Let's be realistic. This is not Don Coryell's team of the sixties playing Cal Poly or the University of Redlands. This is the 21st Century Aztec basketball team, playing in much tougher company. In the last several years we have been playing against schools that are not patsies. I'm thinking of Arizona, Kansas, Gonzaga, UCLA, Nevada, New Mexico, Boise State, UNLV, etc. We've been good enough to have beaten every one of those schools at least once; on the other hand, we have also lost to every one of them (except UCLA) at least once. Nowhere is it written that we should win every game. Or even most games against strong opponents. In the 1991-1992 season the Aztec mean's bb team won exactly TWO games. From '92 through '99 we won a total of 77 games, an average of fewer than 10 wins a season. Even Steve Fisher's first season was dismal, with 5 wins, none in conference. No need to recapitulate what has transpired on the hardwood since then. In short, my point is as follows. By all means let's hope for a better season next year. But let's also give credit where credit is due. Before Steve Fisher arrived, there could not have been many DI basketball programs worse than that of San Diego State. No longer do we have to apologize for Aztec basketball. We aren't Kansas, or Duke, or North Carolina, but nationally there as a reasonable measure of respect for this program. I feel really good about what the team accomplished this year. We should be proud of the team and not waste time making petty complaints about how Malik Pope should have handled his defensive assignment differently. Or why Trey Kell, playing injured, didn't light up the scoreboard. It's easy to criticize when you are in the stands. My guess is that there are not many former DI basketball stars posting on this site. AzWm So, by your standard you have to be a former D1 basketball player (or coach presumably) to be critical of the team? You've got all kinds of people on your political forum commenting who haven't been President (or run for office I'm guessing), so why is it different? And I guess since you weren't a D1 player, then why did you even start this site? You are obviously not any more qualified to comment on whether Malik is/was any good than anyone else...So, are you going to add a new rule that only Pollyanna viewpoints of the team are allowed unless verified to have been a former D1 player/coach? There is no doubt our program has come a long way. I wish we had this hoops team when I was at State, it would have been awesome to be in the student section. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 16, 2018 21:43:33 GMT -8
I am starting to think . . . . . the team sufficiently. AzWm So, by your standard you have to be a former D1 basketball player (or coach presumably) to be critical of the team? You've got all kinds of people on your political forum commenting who haven't been President (or run for office I'm guessing), so why is it different? And I guess since you weren't a D1 player, then why did you even start this site? You are obviously not any more qualified to comment on whether Malik is/was any good than anyone else...So, are you going to add a new rule that only Pollyanna viewpoints of the team are allowed unless verified to have been a former D1 player/coach? There is no doubt our program has come a long way. I wish we had this hoops team when I was at State, it would have been awesome to be in the student section. Another one who can't grasp the basic point. Look, the game has been played. There was a winner and a loser. We don't like the result, but a team that looked dead in the water in the second half almost pulled it out, forcing the other team to score the winning basket with 1.1 second left. And even then we got off a shot that came pretty close to winning the game. (I should add that this was a team that looked dead in the water mid-season but came back to win the MWC Tournament.) So what do we read? Petty complaining about a guard who didn't play as well as we would have liked when he was still not completely recovered from an injury. And gripes about a forward who played all four years for the school but wasn't able to stop that last drive by one of the best players the team faced all year. It's not like he ran away and did nothing to stop the play. I'm coming to the realization that some --- repeat some --- sports fans, here and elsewhere, take it as a personal insult when their favorite team loses. Instead, we need to support these players and thank them for representing our school so well. It's no easy thing to play a sport and also go to class, after all. Let's focus on what went right rather than who should have done what differently. To the 2018 Aztec men's basketball team, I say "Thank you, you did well." AzWm |
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Post by aztech on Mar 16, 2018 23:37:37 GMT -8
Key difference there is that we returned all 5 starters and added an experienced sixth man that happened to fill a weakness. Doesn't mean next year's squad can't do great things, but replacing Malik and Trey with two new guys (either freshmen or transfer) with no drop off of any kind seems unlikely. Yeah it's not the same situation but we're still returning a lot of guys, and a lot of our production came from freshman which is encouraging.
I'm not too scared of replacing Malik only because Jalen is practically his clone. If we could replace Malik with a legit big that played more of a defense/rebounding role instead of Malik's scoring/playmaking role, it might even be an upgrade, as crazy as that sounds. There's no bigger Malik fan than me, but I think there were very little synergies with him and Jalen paired up since they did sort of the same things (although Jalen was clearly a more tenacious rebounder, while Pope was more skilled with the ball). I think it'd be better to have 1 of those finesse big guys like Jalen/Pope paired with 1 enforcer big type of guy.
Replacing Kell is a tougher task IMO, since I don't think we have anyone on the roster currently with the skills to come close to bringing what Kell brought. Hemsley would be the guy if he made better decisions and could score reliably from outside, but I don't see it. Schakel is a better alternative than Hemsley IMO but he needs to get more confidence driving to the bucket and creating his own shot. Schakel has a good stroke though and makes good decisions, so he might be the guy.
What do we know about Adam Seiko? He's the same height as Hemsley, but is he better at guarding? We will need a shutdown guard to be really successful. |
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Post by Pasadenaztec on Mar 17, 2018 4:09:14 GMT -8
Teams lose, look at Arizona. Maybe, even Virginia. |
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Post by longtimebooster on Mar 17, 2018 7:00:07 GMT -8
I am starting to think that I completely wasted my time in creating this thread. I'm not mainly complaining about the numerous attempts (successful ones, I'm sorry to say) to hijack the thread. No, I refer to the fact that many responses missed the point. I'll try one more time. My main objection is to the whining that so many fans engage in. One has to wonder whether, if we had won the nation championship, some might have complained that our margin of victory in the championship game had been too narrow. Too many people seem to think that we should have done much better than we did, that we should have beaten Houston easily, etc., etc. Pope? A real disappointment. Should have handled his defensive maneuver on Houston's last basket better. How about coach Dutcher? Well, obviously he did not motivate the team sufficiently. Let's be realistic. This is not Don Coryell's team of the sixties playing Cal Poly or the University of Redlands. This is the 21st Century Aztec basketball team, playing in much tougher company. In the last several years we have been playing against schools that are not patsies. I'm thinking of Arizona, Kansas, Gonzaga, UCLA, Nevada, New Mexico, Boise State, UNLV, etc. We've been good enough to have beaten every one of those schools at least once; on the other hand, we have also lost to every one of them (except UCLA) at least once. Nowhere is it written that we should win every game. Or even most games against strong opponents. In the 1991-1992 season the Aztec mean's bb team won exactly TWO games. From '92 through '99 we won a total of 77 games, an average of fewer than 10 wins a season. Even Steve Fisher's first season was dismal, with 5 wins, none in conference. No need to recapitulate what has transpired on the hardwood since then. In short, my point is as follows. By all means let's hope for a better season next year. But let's also give credit where credit is due. Before Steve Fisher arrived, there could not have been many DI basketball programs worse than that of San Diego State. No longer do we have to apologize for Aztec basketball. We aren't Kansas, or Duke, or North Carolina, but nationally there as a reasonable measure of respect for this program. I feel really good about what the team accomplished this year. We should be proud of the team and not waste time making petty complaints about how Malik Pope should have handled his defensive assignment differently. Or why Trey Kell, playing injured, didn't light up the scoreboard. It's easy to criticize when you are in the stands. My guess is that there are not many former DI basketball stars posting on this site. AzWm So, by your standard you have to be a former D1 basketball player (or coach presumably) to be critical of the team? You've got all kinds of people on your political forum commenting who haven't been President (or run for office I'm guessing), so why is it different? And I guess since you weren't a D1 player, then why did you even start this site? You are obviously not any more qualified to comment on whether Malik is/was any good than anyone else...So, are you going to add a new rule that only Pollyanna viewpoints of the team are allowed unless verified to have been a former D1 player/coach? There is no doubt our program has come a long way. I wish we had this hoops team when I was at State, it would have been awesome to be in the student section. Geezus. Defensive much, William? You're the one who started a thread b*tching about scapegoating, which BTW I've seen remarkably little of (no doubt due in part to the strategic removal of certain trolls and lurkers. Thank you, BTW.) No less than a couple of college coaches and basketball stars did talk about how Kell and Pope blew their defensive assignments against Gray on the final play. And rightfully so. It's not just Aztec honks saying this stuff. I would add my two cents, FWIW, to the game-winning basket. I think McDaniels also blew it. He was guarding his man on the opposite side of the key from where Gray started his drive. He's without a doubt our best rim protector. Probably better than Pope even. Instead of selling out, leaving his man, sliding behind Pope and offering one final defense of the backboard/rim, he stuck with his man, likely to protect against an interior pass and/or to box out in case of a miss/putback. But there was so little time on the clock that Gray wouldn't have been able to have passed and had his teammate gotten off a shot before the buzzer. Further, there's no way Gray was going to pass. Everyone in the building knew that. IMO, McDaniels should've sold out, slid under the basket and knocked Gray's underhand scoop away. He didn't. Bummer. But that's water under the bridge. I was very impressed with this team. They played great, exciting hoops for the final month of the season. For 10 minutes in the first half of the Houston game, they played like they did in January, reverting to poor form -- turnovers, blown defensive assignments, missed layups, etc. And it cost them. Also, as I've posted elsewhere, I strongly believe that McDanlels, like Gray for Houston, was SDSU's X-factor. The reason the Aztecs lost was completely, entirely due to the fact that McDaniels picked up some early fouls and ended up sitting for much of the first half. When McDaniels was on the floor, our team was dynamic and dangerous. The kid was everywhere -- scoring, defending, rebounding. Houston had zero answer for McDaniels just as we had zero answer for Gray. I'm fairly sure had McDaniels played his full minutes in the first half, we'd have gone into halftime either tied or with the lead. We'd have then done what we did to just about every team we'd faced over the past 30 days, and that is we'd have worn them down until they finally cracked with about 7 or 8 minutes left to play, with SDSU winning going away due to tenacity and depth. The fouls McDaniels picked up early killed us. So put me down as immensely satisfied with how this season played out during the final act, as harsh as the NCAA Tourney loss was. And I don't mind fans venting and wringing their hands over players' performances in the Tourney, as long as it's not mindless, troll-baiting gibberish, which, again, seems to have subsided substantially on this board. And, again, thanks for that. As for me, I'm turning the page. Can't wait for next season. |
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Post by ourtime on Mar 17, 2018 7:31:21 GMT -8
I am starting to think that I completely wasted my time in creating this thread. I'm not mainly complaining about the numerous attempts (successful ones, I'm sorry to say) to hijack the thread. No, I refer to the fact that many responses missed the point. I'll try one more time. My main objection is to the whining that so many fans engage in. One has to wonder whether, if we had won the nation championship, some might have complained that our margin of victory in the championship game had been too narrow. Too many people seem to think that we should have done much better than we did, that we should have beaten Houston easily, etc., etc. Pope? A real disappointment. Should have handled his defensive maneuver on Houston's last basket better. How about coach Dutcher? Well, obviously he did not motivate the team sufficiently. Let's be realistic. This is not Don Coryell's team of the sixties playing Cal Poly or the University of Redlands. This is the 21st Century Aztec basketball team, playing in much tougher company. In the last several years we have been playing against schools that are not patsies. I'm thinking of Arizona, Kansas, Gonzaga, UCLA, Nevada, New Mexico, Boise State, UNLV, etc. We've been good enough to have beaten every one of those schools at least once; on the other hand, we have also lost to every one of them (except UCLA) at least once. Nowhere is it written that we should win every game. Or even most games against strong opponents. In the 1991-1992 season the Aztec mean's bb team won exactly TWO games. From '92 through '99 we won a total of 77 games, an average of fewer than 10 wins a season. Even Steve Fisher's first season was dismal, with 5 wins, none in conference. No need to recapitulate what has transpired on the hardwood since then. In short, my point is as follows. By all means let's hope for a better season next year. But let's also give credit where credit is due. Before Steve Fisher arrived, there could not have been many DI basketball programs worse than that of San Diego State. No longer do we have to apologize for Aztec basketball. We aren't Kansas, or Duke, or North Carolina, but nationally there is a reasonable measure of respect for this program. I feel really good about what the team accomplished this year. We should be proud of the team and not waste time making petty complaints about how Malik Pope should have handled his defensive assignment differently. Or why Trey Kell, playing injured, didn't light up the scoreboard. It's easy to criticize when you are in the stands. My guess is that there are not many former DI basketball stars posting on this site. AzWm Yet another post telling someone how to fan? I completely understand and agree with not letting the board become overrun with trolls, but in addition to really accomplished players and coaches, do you know what else a program needs? Passionate fans! Would the success even matter if no cared? And that passion manifests itself in many ways. I'm sure 99.9% of Aztec basketball fans are proud of the way our Aztecs turned their season around and battled to the end against Houston, that doesn't change the fact that many self inflicted wounds likely altered the outcome. Coryell? 1991-1992? Before Fisher got here? Why continue to bring this up as a benchmark? That's 25-50 years ago and absolutely irrelevant to every current SDSU student and recent alum. The ineptitude of the pre-Fisher era no longer defines the programs success to a large part of our fan base. I'm not trying to be the new board contrarian but IMO it's justified for fans to evaluate success against the last 10 years of the program. That's what the program is trying to maintain. BTW While walking across campus to Viejas for the NCAA Tourney my daughter and I passed Devon Watson, and you know what he looked like he was doing? Getting on with and living his life. I seriously doubt players and coaches give a $#!+ about this board. This board is for passionate fans. In whatever form that comes. And as a fellow fan, I welcome them all. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 17, 2018 8:44:01 GMT -8
Yes, by all means let's turn the page. That's all I was trying to say. I see some comments as classic nit-picks. The reference to the 60s (I was there) is to remind everyone of how far this school has come, both in terms of academics and athletics since then. I remember, when I was at Fullerton JC, of daydreaming about how great it would be if Cal State Fullerton, as it was then called, might one day play and beat schools such as Ohio State. A complete pipe dream with no chance of ever coming true. Well, CSU Fullerton couldn't quite get the job done, but SDSU really has, at least to a large degree. (I'm in awe every time I pass the new student union, by the way! Wish there had been such a thing when I was a student there!) In my view, the positives far outweigh the negatives with respect to Aztecs football and basketball this year. I prefer to concentrate of the positives. Who cares if the defense did not play it right at the end of the Houston game!  And with that comment I will shut up on this topic. AzWm |
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Post by moctezumaii on Mar 17, 2018 10:36:55 GMT -8
Call me an Aztec apologist, but I think this team has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, regarding this last game. Someone's got to lose if someone else wins, but how you play the game is what counts. San Diego State gave Houston all they had, but the Cougars were just a little bit better THIS time. Call me a cock-eyed optimist, but there is plenty to look forward to for next year's team.
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Post by azteca on Mar 17, 2018 11:58:18 GMT -8
My observations in a nutshell, we make even four or five of the 14 missed free throws and the Aztecs win!!
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Post by DeeMoney on Mar 17, 2018 13:09:19 GMT -8
I saw a youtube video from 1984 where cage blocked two shots in final seconds as SDSU beat new mexico. This 2018 NCAA loss was the "moving out of the way" defense. Stand our ground in future games. To be fair, you are not really allowed to stand your ground much in basketball anymore. Now if you stand your ground all the offensive player has to do is initiate contact and its a foul on you. 1984 Basketball unfortunately is not allowed anymore, its becoming more a game of tag, in that if the player with the ball can tag the defender (and create contact) its a foul on the defense. Olay defense is being enforced in hoops now, but hey it inflates points |
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Post by AztecBill on Mar 18, 2018 7:51:11 GMT -8
What's funny, is if that last shot of Trey's went in, which by the way was quite possible, we would be emphasizing what a great game the Aztecs played.
Watching each of the last 10 games, 7 of them in person, was a lot of fun and a great way to end the season. I am really looking forward to next season, as always
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Post by Spud on Mar 18, 2018 10:57:30 GMT -8
So, by your standard you have to be a former D1 basketball player (or coach presumably) to be critical of the team? You've got all kinds of people on your political forum commenting who haven't been President (or run for office I'm guessing), so why is it different? And I guess since you weren't a D1 player, then why did you even start this site? You are obviously not any more qualified to comment on whether Malik is/was any good than anyone else...So, are you going to add a new rule that only Pollyanna viewpoints of the team are allowed unless verified to have been a former D1 player/coach? There is no doubt our program has come a long way. I wish we had this hoops team when I was at State, it would have been awesome to be in the student section. Another one who can't grasp the basic point. Look, the game has been played. There was a winner and a loser. We don't like the result, but a team that looked dead in the water in the second half almost pulled it out, forcing the other team to score the winning basket with 1.1 second left. And even then we got off a shot that came pretty close to winning the game. (I should add that this was a team that looked dead in the water mid-season but came back to win the MWC Tournament.) So what do we read? Petty complaining about a guard who didn't play as well as we would have liked when he was still not completely recovered from an injury. And gripes about a forward who played all four years for the school but wasn't able to stop that last drive by one of the best players the team faced all year. It's not like he ran away and did nothing to stop the play. I'm coming to the realization that some --- repeat some --- sports fans, here and elsewhere, take it as a personal insult when their favorite team loses. Instead, we need to support these players and thank them for representing our school so well. It's no easy thing to play a sport and also go to class, after all. Let's focus on what went right rather than who should have done what differently. To the 2018 Aztec men's basketball team, I say "Thank you, you did well." AzWm You're a riot. The hypocrisy of this board would drive me insane if I actually cared that much. It does bother me that you've done NOTHING over the years to cull the obvious trolls, yet decided all of a sudden to get at a couple posters and then make some grand pronouncement that we should all just throw flowers at the team. I completely get your point, it's just funny you decided to all of a sudden do ANYTHING. There are tons of posters on here that could drive crazy with their near zeal of "protecting the kids", but in the end, this is supposed to be a fan forum "Where Fans and Alumni Have Their Say"...except unless it's somehow perceived to be negative. |
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Post by Spud on Mar 18, 2018 11:00:25 GMT -8
What's funny, is if that last shot of Trey's went in, which by the way was quite possible, we would be emphasizing what a great game the Aztecs played. Watching each of the last 10 games, 7 of them in person, was a lot of fun and a great way to end the season. I am really looking forward to next season, as always As I watched that Michigan shot drop, I though "why not us?" In any case, bravo to the team for fighting back, but man, the middle of that game was brutal to watch. Not sure we'd be praising a well played game rather than saying "glad they got the bugs out, now lets dominate Michigan". |
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Post by AztecCamera on Mar 18, 2018 12:18:06 GMT -8
We didn't lose to a very good team. We lost to Man Bun and if Pope would of stood his ground during Man Bun's game winning lay up, we would of won that game.
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Post by AztecBill on Mar 18, 2018 12:44:06 GMT -8
We didn't lose to a very good team. We lost to Man Bun and if Pope would of stood his ground during Man Bun's game winning lay up, we would of won that game. Houston is a very good team and so are the Aztecs. |
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Post by K2Aztec73 on Mar 18, 2018 13:35:39 GMT -8
We didn't lose to a very good team. We lost to Man Bun and if Pope would of stood his ground during Man Bun's game winning lay up, we would of won that game. If Pope "stood his ground", the way the game was being called, that probably would have been an "and 1", with Pope fouling out of the game, making Kell's Hail Mary 3 attempt a try for a tie instead of a win. |
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Post by ourtime on Mar 18, 2018 13:52:51 GMT -8
We didn't lose to a very good team. We lost to Man Bun and if Pope would of stood his ground during Man Bun's game winning lay up, we would of won that game. If Pope "stood his ground", the way the game was being called, that probably would have been an "and 1", with Pope fouling out of the game, making Kell's Hail Mary 3 attempt a try for a tie instead of a win. Fouls can never be assumed, and rightly or wrongly officials do have a tendency to swallow their whistles in end games situations. Either way Pope has to stand his ground and make Gray shoot over him, and at 6'10" and in the air that's a difficult shot. Maybe it still goes in, Gray is a stud after all. Malik did the one thing he couldn't do and that's jump to the side and let Gray slide on by for a much easier chance. That said it really didn't have to come down to that, the 10 1st half turnovers lead to 13 points for the Cougars, 14 missed FT's hurt, some of those were the front end of 1 and 1's which is like a turnover. I thought the shot selection in the 1st half was atrocious, lots of perimeter shots when they should have been pounding it inside all along. Too many empty possessions. And after all that we let one guy score 39 of their 67 points. That's pretty absurd. It's easy to fixate on the last on the last drive, but it was a team loss and many things went wrong to lead to a two point loss. |
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 18, 2018 14:43:30 GMT -8
To be within 2 points after missing 14 free throws, 12 three pointers and having a star player go for 39 points against you is beyond a miracle. Houston is a very good team. Rob Gray is a very good player. We just came up a few points short in what most observers would consider a transitional type season.
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Post by rebar619 on Mar 19, 2018 10:48:12 GMT -8
Call me an Aztec apologist, but I think this team has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, regarding this last game. Someone's got to lose if someone else wins, but how you play the game is what counts. San Diego State gave Houston all they had, but the Cougars were just a little bit better THIS time. Call me a cock-eyed optimist, but there is plenty to look forward to for next year's team. Next year's team is going to be REALLY fun. I think we are going to see a faster and more athletic team. Mitchell and McD will have to think less (especially on defense) and play faster. Narain will be faster than Pope in general. I am just bummed we have to wait so long to watch them play! |
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