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Post by aztecwin on Jul 12, 2014 9:55:01 GMT -8
You did not explore the idea of the back and forth discussion that went into product that would be acceptable. I guess if you want to characterize what Adams and Madison did was to lie, that is your call. I am telling you the reality of how things are done is like herding cats and some times it is not as you would like to think. Are you that naïve? So you do have that much disrespect for our Founding Fathers. I am surprised. Just being real! Maybe you should consider a similar approach.
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 12, 2014 12:18:49 GMT -8
So you do have that much disrespect for our Founding Fathers. I am surprised. Just being real! Maybe you should consider a similar approach. My respect for our Founding Fathers is real.
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Post by Zuma on Jul 12, 2014 13:06:40 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 12, 2014 15:15:42 GMT -8
This is exactly right! Maybe some of our lefties will learn something about this issue.
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 13, 2014 9:19:18 GMT -8
Interesting, indeed. He makes my point.
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 13, 2014 12:33:08 GMT -8
Interesting, indeed. He makes my point. Wrong again, you didn't even read it. It says just what I said.
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 14, 2014 8:15:13 GMT -8
Interesting, indeed. He makes my point. Wrong again, you didn't even read it. It says just what I said. The writer trys to make his case by using a straw man argument that if one states we are not a Christian Nation that means the Founding Fathers were atheists. Not true, of course, but it is typical for cons to throw out red herrings. He apends some effort showing that there were plenty of Christians of various sects at the time. All true, but not germane to the question of the foundation of our country. Our foundation is the Constitution. The auther makes clear that his argument does not apply to the federal government. He tells you that just after he quotes Article 11. He then spends some time showing how we were different from the countrys of Europe that the Barbary States had been at war with for centurys. I will add to his argument by pointing out that the king of France was hiis Most Christian Majesty, the king of Spain was his Catholic Majesty, Italy was mainly the Papal States., the king of England was head of Anglican Church. We were different. Our Constitution separated all religion from our national government. That is why we could sign a treaty that said so. So, aztecwin, our Founding Fathers were not liars. We are not a Christian Nation. We are a nation where the citizens are mainly Christian, but is not the same thing.
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 14, 2014 10:18:31 GMT -8
Wrong again, you didn't even read it. It says just what I said. The writer trys to make his case by using a straw man argument that if one states we are not a Christian Nation that means the Founding Fathers were atheists. Not true, of course, but it is typical for cons to throw out red herrings. He apends some effort showing that there were plenty of Christians of various sects at the time. All true, but not germane to the question of the foundation of our country. Our foundation is the Constitution. The auther makes clear that his argument does not apply to the federal government. He tells you that just after he quotes Article 11. He then spends some time showing how we were different from the countrys of Europe that the Barbary States had been at war with for centurys. I will add to his argument by pointing out that the king of France was hiis Most Christian Majesty, the king of Spain was his Catholic Majesty, Italy was mainly the Papal States., the king of England was head of Anglican Church. We were different. Our Constitution separated all religion from our national government. That is why we could sign a treaty that said so. So, aztecwin, our Founding Fathers were not liars. We are not a Christian Nation. We are a nation where the citizens are mainly Christian, but is not the same thing. To what length will you go to not recognize the give and take that took place to get that treaty signed? I never said those guys were liars, just that they were pragmatic realists and did what it take to get that treaty signed.
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 14, 2014 13:35:12 GMT -8
The writer trys to make his case by using a straw man argument that if one states we are not a Christian Nation that means the Founding Fathers were atheists. Not true, of course, but it is typical for cons to throw out red herrings. He apends some effort showing that there were plenty of Christians of various sects at the time. All true, but not germane to the question of the foundation of our country. Our foundation is the Constitution. The auther makes clear that his argument does not apply to the federal government. He tells you that just after he quotes Article 11. He then spends some time showing how we were different from the countrys of Europe that the Barbary States had been at war with for centurys. I will add to his argument by pointing out that the king of France was hiis Most Christian Majesty, the king of Spain was his Catholic Majesty, Italy was mainly the Papal States., the king of England was head of Anglican Church. We were different. Our Constitution separated all religion from our national government. That is why we could sign a treaty that said so. So, aztecwin, our Founding Fathers were not liars. We are not a Christian Nation. We are a nation where the citizens are mainly Christian, but is not the same thing. To what length will you go to not recognize the give and take that took place to get that treaty signed? I never said those guys were liars, just that they were pragmatic realists and did what it take to get that treaty signed. I say you are wrong.
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 15, 2014 13:17:12 GMT -8
To what length will you go to not recognize the give and take that took place to get that treaty signed? I never said those guys were liars, just that they were pragmatic realists and did what it take to get that treaty signed. I say you are wrong. You lose.
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Post by Zuma on Jul 19, 2014 10:17:32 GMT -8
I showed that link to show you both that it is much more grey than you both think. The founding fathers patterned much of what they wrote in the constitution about what they learned through their christian backgrounds growing up. Not their catholic, protestant, episcopalian, lutheran, etc upbringing, but the basic christian tenets of how to treat people, and the rights that all people deserve. This was started in the declaration of independence which did use the word god in it. They used this christian belief system as the foundation of the constitution, but also realized that they needed to fully follow it, and treat all people equally, regardless of what religion they followed. Jesus did not teach people to follow him, he only taught what he felt was the correct way to act towards fellow human beings. It was others much later, who used Jesus words to condemn and ridicule others with different beliefs. This includes trying to turn someone by saying that their religious beliefs are wrong. The fathers of this country realized that we existed strictly because many of our first settlers came here because they were ostracized for their wrong beliefs.
This link I showed, and my feelings prove that you are both correct. The constitution's basis is in Christian teaching. That is the foundation of our nation's law structure (which is the question that was asked in the title of this thread). We are not a "Christian Nation," as we do not have a state sponsored religion. Let's stop playing this bull$#!+ "I have to prove I am right" game on here, and think about my previous sentence, and maybe we can see that there is grains of truth in both sides, and this is all fighting about semantics, which is just a pissing contest, where no one wins any way.
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 19, 2014 12:24:34 GMT -8
I showed that link to show you both that it is much more grey than you both think. The founding fathers patterned much of what they wrote in the constitution about what they learned through their christian backgrounds growing up. Not their catholic, protestant, episcopalian, lutheran, etc upbringing, but the basic christian tenets of how to treat people, and the rights that all people deserve. This was started in the declaration of independence which did use the word god in it. They used this christian belief system as the foundation of the constitution, but also realized that they needed to fully follow it, and treat all people equally, regardless of what religion they followed. Jesus did not teach people to follow him, he only taught what he felt was the correct way to act towards fellow human beings. It was others much later, who used Jesus words to condemn and ridicule others with different beliefs. This includes trying to turn someone by saying that their religious beliefs are wrong. The fathers of this country realized that we existed strictly because many of our first settlers came here because they were ostracized for their wrong beliefs. This link I showed, and my feelings prove that you are both correct. The constitution's basis is in Christian teaching. That is the foundation of our nation's law structure (which is the question that was asked in the title of this thread). We are not a "Christian Nation," as we do not have a state sponsored religion. Let's stop playing this bull$#!+ "I have to prove I am right" game on here, and think about my previous sentence, and maybe we can see that there is grains of truth in both sides, and this is all fighting about semantics, which is just a pissing contest, where no one wins any way. You are right, but that is not the basis of contention. It was more about why a treaty was worded a certain way.
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 19, 2014 13:44:08 GMT -8
I showed that link to show you both that it is much more grey than you both think. The founding fathers patterned much of what they wrote in the constitution about what they learned through their christian backgrounds growing up. Not their catholic, protestant, episcopalian, lutheran, etc upbringing, but the basic christian tenets of how to treat people, and the rights that all people deserve. This was started in the declaration of independence which did use the word god in it. They used this christian belief system as the foundation of the constitution, but also realized that they needed to fully follow it, and treat all people equally, regardless of what religion they followed. Jesus did not teach people to follow him, he only taught what he felt was the correct way to act towards fellow human beings. It was others much later, who used Jesus words to condemn and ridicule others with different beliefs. This includes trying to turn someone by saying that their religious beliefs are wrong. The fathers of this country realized that we existed strictly because many of our first settlers came here because they were ostracized for their wrong beliefs. This link I showed, and my feelings prove that you are both correct. The constitution's basis is in Christian teaching. That is the foundation of our nation's law structure (which is the question that was asked in the title of this thread). We are not a "Christian Nation," as we do not have a state sponsored religion. Let's stop playing this bull$#!+ "I have to prove I am right" game on here, and think about my previous sentence, and maybe we can see that there is grains of truth in both sides, and this is all fighting about semantics, which is just a pissing contest, where no one wins any way.[/quote As I posted before it would not be possible to be part of European society and not be exposed to Christianity. It was part and parcel of the society. I do not think that means the it is the foundation of our Constitution. It is the Enlightenment, not Christianity, that is the foundation of the Constitution. Christianity then, as now, is based on faith. The Enlightenment is based on reason. Those are two opposite concepts. I do agree that Christianity has been hijacked since the death of Jesus. The book, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, by Thomas Jefferson is a fascinating example of the meeting of the Enlightenment and Christianity. The teachings of Jesus with none of the magic we need to have faith in in order to believe.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 8, 2014 21:29:09 GMT -8
I think that it is correct to call the U.S.A. a Christian nation, though one must clarify the point. We are not a Christian nation in the same way that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation, and we should be thankful for that. However, the founding of the nation was based on Christian concepts and the vast majority of the first citizens of the new nation were indeed Christians. Christianity remains by far the most popular religious preference to this day. The fact that the words "Christ" and "Christianity" are not found in the Constitution is irrelevant to this discussion in my view.
AzWm
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Post by azteccc on Aug 8, 2014 23:41:33 GMT -8
I think that it is correct to call the U.S.A. a Christian nation, though one must clarify the point. However, the founding of the nation was based on Christian concepts The USA is in no way a Christian nation, it is a nation with a majority population that self-describes as Christian. “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” - Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (Ratified unanimously in the Senate and signed by President John Adams) -- You confuse "Christian concepts" with morality and justice, something that most religious people do. The existence of each has nothing to do with the followers of Jesus Christ.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 11, 2014 10:23:28 GMT -8
Really, William, it is nonsense to expect to see Jesus Christ mentioned in our Constitution when we are a Christian nation? What foolishness are you peddling? avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.aspRead Article 11 and see the truth. I would hardly hang my hat on a paragraph in a treaty that was written with a certain end in mind. This is not the Constitution! Exactly! But isn't it obvious that our values were principally based on the Judeo-Christian ethic? Our Founders wanted nothing to do with a state religion, but they certainly assumed that religion would continue to be a central part of the lives of most Americans. It's the recent effort to make government hostile to religion, rather than neutral to it, that I object to. AzWm
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