Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 4, 2014 10:02:38 GMT -8
This is a question that has been debated ad infinitum in recent years. Are we a Christian nation? Was the Judeo-Christian ethic the basis for our concept of nationhood? This author says not. What a surprise, coming from the New Republic! Well, quite a few readers take exception, and I am posting some of what I think are the most important opinions. (To be clear, I am a real, honest-to-goodness agnostic. I just don't know, but am willing to be convinced.)
Here are the responses that I recommend to your attention. . .
RobertHelbing
To convert the phrase "Nature's God" to atheism is Orwellian
misdirection, nothing more. Jefferson did believe in God, even
if it was the God of the Enlightenment rather than the God of the
New Testament.
We ARE a Christian nation, in the sense that our moral framework
comes from Christianity's belief that all races, classes and sexes have souls of equal
merit (Galatians 3:28). And in the sense that religion and the state are separate spheres
of authority (Matthew 22:15) that should not be combined into a theocracy. Islam, Buddhism,
Hinduism and the rest never promoted that message, and their societies evolved differently
(and with less justice) as a result.
Humanism is a creation of Jesus Christ and Paul of Tarsus. Even
atheists such as Richard Dawkins preach that Gospel, all
unknowing.
As for Massachusetts farmers overthrowing the English, you'd
best get back to your history books. The English Government never
tried to rule the colonies until 1765; from Jamestown to the
Townsend Acts, British America was self-governing. King James II's
efforts to form a royal government in America (the Dominion of
New England) collapsed in 1688 (along with his throne, as his
policies contributed to his overthrow by his nephew William III).
The true American Revolution was the one George III tried to pull
off by imposing royal rule across the ocean. He failed.
============================================================
tnesbit
Jefferson and others may have been deists, but the majority of
the Continental Congress was not. There were roughly even
numbers of Calvinists (Congregationalists and Presbyterians),
and Anglicans (Episcopalians). And, one of the delegates was
a Presbyterian minister and professor at Princeton. This Congress
made several changes to Jefferson's draft of the Declaration.
Notable in the context of this discussion are the addition
of the terms "Supreme Judge", and "Divine Providence".
These terms come straight from Calvinist theology. In that
theology, the ruler is to be obeyed, and the people are not to
revolt. Obviously this would have precluded independence.
However, Calvin taught an exception, which is that God would
raise up a Judge to overthrow oppressors. By Judge, Calvin
meant champions akin to the Biblical judges, like Gideon,
and Moses. Thus the Congress appealed to God to be their
Supreme Judge, that is, champion, against the oppressive king.
Divine Providence is a reference to the Calvinist concept that
God is active in all aspects of Creation, everyday, that he
governs and provides for his creation and people and takes a
active role in the world. This is the polar opposite of the
deist god, who is likened to a watchmaker that steps away from
the watch to let it run on its own. Rather than being a deist
document, the Declaration is overwhelmingly Christian, and it
appeals to, and relies on, the protection and guidance of the
Christian God. Besides, if the document were deist, the
founders would not have bothered to include a reference to God
at all, since the deist God did not care about or intervene in
the affairs of men.
==============================================
HenryMiller1
The scary thing is the growing encroachment of the compulsory
collective over the individual, and it matters not at all whether
it's government or religion demanding conformity to its rules.
The authors of the Bill of Rights would be appalled and saddened.
===========================================================
MichaelLaracuente
Liberals are always trying to dispel the fact that our country and
our constitution are based on judeo-christian. It is a deliberate
attempt to rewrite history and remove these facts to support position
of separation of church and state. A few simple facts:
The constitution prohibits the government of establishing a state
religion. Why? Simply the framers did not want the government to
have the ability to collect a tithing ( a tax) as King George of
England had. The King was the heard of the Anglican church and
demanded a tithing from all subjects. We had just revolted against
taxes without representation and they did not want this potential
backdoor to taxation. Also we had multiple christian groups that
were in the US and had fled persecution in Europe that influenced
the wording. But taxes (taxation which could create a more
powerful central government) were the real issue. It was never
intended to prohibit crosses on public land, or the use of prayer
in public domain, PERIOD!
George Washington was the first to celebrate Thanksgiving - not
the Pilgrims and Indians of children's tales. After the revolutionary
war, Washington proclaimed Thursday the 26th of November 1789 a
day of “public thanksgiving and prayer” devoted to “the service
of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent Author of
all the good that was, that is, or that will be.” Lincoln established
the day that we celebrate today and it was passed by congress in
1941.
These a just a few things that liberals don't talk about because it
proves them wrong.
==================================================================
ronlsb
It's nice that your author was able to mention three or four of the
founders who were in fact Deists in their religious beliefs in order
to try to take Christianity out of the nation's founding. Now
please have him go do the research and find that there were dozens
more of the founders who were truly believers in the God of the
Bible and not simply "Deists" who believed in a Creator who formed
the universe and then left it to itself to play out. Then have
him go read the state Constitutions of the original 13 colonies
and he will find elements of Christianity throughout them all.
Nice try buddy!
www.newrepublic.com/article/118561/american-independence-myths-lies-may-comfort-facts-matter
AzWm
Here are the responses that I recommend to your attention. . .
RobertHelbing
To convert the phrase "Nature's God" to atheism is Orwellian
misdirection, nothing more. Jefferson did believe in God, even
if it was the God of the Enlightenment rather than the God of the
New Testament.
We ARE a Christian nation, in the sense that our moral framework
comes from Christianity's belief that all races, classes and sexes have souls of equal
merit (Galatians 3:28). And in the sense that religion and the state are separate spheres
of authority (Matthew 22:15) that should not be combined into a theocracy. Islam, Buddhism,
Hinduism and the rest never promoted that message, and their societies evolved differently
(and with less justice) as a result.
Humanism is a creation of Jesus Christ and Paul of Tarsus. Even
atheists such as Richard Dawkins preach that Gospel, all
unknowing.
As for Massachusetts farmers overthrowing the English, you'd
best get back to your history books. The English Government never
tried to rule the colonies until 1765; from Jamestown to the
Townsend Acts, British America was self-governing. King James II's
efforts to form a royal government in America (the Dominion of
New England) collapsed in 1688 (along with his throne, as his
policies contributed to his overthrow by his nephew William III).
The true American Revolution was the one George III tried to pull
off by imposing royal rule across the ocean. He failed.
============================================================
tnesbit
Jefferson and others may have been deists, but the majority of
the Continental Congress was not. There were roughly even
numbers of Calvinists (Congregationalists and Presbyterians),
and Anglicans (Episcopalians). And, one of the delegates was
a Presbyterian minister and professor at Princeton. This Congress
made several changes to Jefferson's draft of the Declaration.
Notable in the context of this discussion are the addition
of the terms "Supreme Judge", and "Divine Providence".
These terms come straight from Calvinist theology. In that
theology, the ruler is to be obeyed, and the people are not to
revolt. Obviously this would have precluded independence.
However, Calvin taught an exception, which is that God would
raise up a Judge to overthrow oppressors. By Judge, Calvin
meant champions akin to the Biblical judges, like Gideon,
and Moses. Thus the Congress appealed to God to be their
Supreme Judge, that is, champion, against the oppressive king.
Divine Providence is a reference to the Calvinist concept that
God is active in all aspects of Creation, everyday, that he
governs and provides for his creation and people and takes a
active role in the world. This is the polar opposite of the
deist god, who is likened to a watchmaker that steps away from
the watch to let it run on its own. Rather than being a deist
document, the Declaration is overwhelmingly Christian, and it
appeals to, and relies on, the protection and guidance of the
Christian God. Besides, if the document were deist, the
founders would not have bothered to include a reference to God
at all, since the deist God did not care about or intervene in
the affairs of men.
==============================================
HenryMiller1
The scary thing is the growing encroachment of the compulsory
collective over the individual, and it matters not at all whether
it's government or religion demanding conformity to its rules.
The authors of the Bill of Rights would be appalled and saddened.
===========================================================
MichaelLaracuente
Liberals are always trying to dispel the fact that our country and
our constitution are based on judeo-christian. It is a deliberate
attempt to rewrite history and remove these facts to support position
of separation of church and state. A few simple facts:
The constitution prohibits the government of establishing a state
religion. Why? Simply the framers did not want the government to
have the ability to collect a tithing ( a tax) as King George of
England had. The King was the heard of the Anglican church and
demanded a tithing from all subjects. We had just revolted against
taxes without representation and they did not want this potential
backdoor to taxation. Also we had multiple christian groups that
were in the US and had fled persecution in Europe that influenced
the wording. But taxes (taxation which could create a more
powerful central government) were the real issue. It was never
intended to prohibit crosses on public land, or the use of prayer
in public domain, PERIOD!
George Washington was the first to celebrate Thanksgiving - not
the Pilgrims and Indians of children's tales. After the revolutionary
war, Washington proclaimed Thursday the 26th of November 1789 a
day of “public thanksgiving and prayer” devoted to “the service
of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent Author of
all the good that was, that is, or that will be.” Lincoln established
the day that we celebrate today and it was passed by congress in
1941.
These a just a few things that liberals don't talk about because it
proves them wrong.
==================================================================
ronlsb
It's nice that your author was able to mention three or four of the
founders who were in fact Deists in their religious beliefs in order
to try to take Christianity out of the nation's founding. Now
please have him go do the research and find that there were dozens
more of the founders who were truly believers in the God of the
Bible and not simply "Deists" who believed in a Creator who formed
the universe and then left it to itself to play out. Then have
him go read the state Constitutions of the original 13 colonies
and he will find elements of Christianity throughout them all.
Nice try buddy!
www.newrepublic.com/article/118561/american-independence-myths-lies-may-comfort-facts-matter
AzWm
