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Post by 78aztec82 on Nov 2, 2013 9:46:38 GMT -8
When the government forces you to sign up for a plan that conforms or pay a fine it is a government plan. When you are talking about making working folks pay full price and subsidizing poor or non-working folks it is a government plan. Even worse it is a thinly disguised redistribution of wealth. Wrong, wrong, and everything is a "redistribution of wealth". Seriously? It is a government plan. Than manage and mandate all aspects of it, control the governing rules and enforce noncompliance. That is a government plan. It is a redistribution of wealth as well. Let's not kid ourselves. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by azteccc on Nov 2, 2013 10:03:21 GMT -8
Wrong, wrong, and everything is a "redistribution of wealth". Seriously? It is a government plan. Than manage and mandate all aspects of it, control the governing rules and enforce noncompliance. That is a government plan. It is a redistribution of wealth as well. Let's not kid ourselves. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards No, it is not a government plan. Plans on the exchange are regulated by the government, but they are not government plans. Is your car insurance a government plan? And I already noted, I agree. Everything the government does is redistribution of wealth in one form or another. edit: Most of what the government does...
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Post by azteccc on Nov 2, 2013 10:05:58 GMT -8
It would be like saying your hamburger is a government lunch because the FDA regulates the amount of hormones that can be pumped into it.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Nov 2, 2013 10:07:14 GMT -8
It would be like saying your hamburger is a government lunch because the FDA regulates the amount of hormones that can be pumped into it. Not even a close analogy. Come on, you are brighter than that. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Nov 2, 2013 10:09:23 GMT -8
...or you find us stupid.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by davdesid on Nov 2, 2013 12:30:39 GMT -8
Is anyone fined for not buying hamburgers? Yet?
Stalinism.
It's in their DNA.
Inside every libtard is a totalitarian screaming to get out.
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Post by aztecwin on Nov 3, 2013 8:55:50 GMT -8
Here is a Democrat proposing a law to force Doctors to take Medicare patients. tinyurl.com/oow6l6jI am sure it will never happen, but you can see how liberals think.
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Post by davdesid on Nov 3, 2013 16:11:49 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Nov 3, 2013 17:31:37 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Nov 3, 2013 17:36:32 GMT -8
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 4, 2013 11:53:18 GMT -8
If large agribusiness firms force out small family farms, the Left screams bloody murder. * But if I suggest that nationalization of the health insurance industry would mean that thousands of Americans, probably at least half of whom are citizens of modest means, would be wiped out financially, those on the Left just shrug. Hmmm. Double standard, don't you think? (By the way, I own a nice chunk of Apple stock but none in the health insurance industry.) The Left has a deep-seated distrust, if not downright hatred, of private business, especially in the health care field. (Why there isn't an equally negative animus toward supermarket chains puzzles me. After all, it is quite possible (though not advisable) to go without health care for years, whereas going without food for even a few days causes you to assume room temperature. Why is there no campaign to create a "public option" in the form of government run food stores? Oh, that's right; I'm not to utilize too many logical arguments in this discussion. : Never mind the fact that private businesses have created the richest, most powerful nation in history. If government were the answer to all society's needs, the Soviet Union would have been a gigantic combination of Switzerland and Park Avenue. As many have pointed out, ObamaCare puts the very concept of insurance on its ear. You don't take out a mortgage to buy bread and milk. Or clothing, or oil and gasoline for you car or truck. Yet that is the concept of ObamaCare. What those of us with libertarian leanings find most odious in ObamaCare is its assumption that limiting individual freedom for the "greater good" is not only acceptable but noble. Therefore, we see government requirement of various coverages in health insurance that make no sense and needlessly drive up costs. One size fits all is the motto. We can't let those foolish people buy "sub-standard" policies, now can we? What is so sad is that the feds could simply have set up direct subsidies to enable low income folks to buy health insurance on the open market. And by open market, I mean what the Heritage Foundation meant by exchanges. That is, a system in which any insurance company could sell health insurance anywhere in the country. There would have been no need for the complexities and enormous costs of ObamaCare exchanges. Let's say that you are a young, healthy American and want a low cost but high deducible plan meant to cover catastrophic health situations? Why should you not be allowed to buy such a plan? Who the hell is Barack Obama or Nancy Pelosi to tell us that such plans are "substandard?" I guess we are supposed to realize just how lucky we are that they, the enlightened few, are going to save us from ourselves! The essence of America is the belief that the individual is sovereign. The government is allowed to abridge individual freedoms only in accordance with the limited government framework of the U.S. Constitution. ObamaCare is just the latest in a never-ending string of attempts to make citizens conform to an all-powerful government. This is the essence of Progressive politics (a popular word for collectivism). The government is supreme, not the individual. And here I thought that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution had created a form of government unlike the top-down systems that had been the rule since humans first banded together in groups larger than local clans and tribes. Sorry, I guess I was just forgetting my place in the brave new world our betters are so generously building for us. AzWm PS: Many times supporters of socialized medicine claim that U.S. life expectancy is worse than many other countries. If one corrects for the (admittedly alarming) rate of violent deaths here, any advantage other countries have shrinks or disappears. Also, I believe that I am correct in saying that survival rates for some medical problems favor us regardless of how the relevant statistics are manipulated. *Please understand that I am all in favor of family farms. I am also in favor of Mom and Pop grocery stores and neighborhood record shops and hardware stores. Not so much in favor, however, that I want the government to subsidize them when the market place dictates that they are no longer viable.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 4, 2013 12:13:05 GMT -8
It would be like saying your hamburger is a government lunch because the FDA regulates the amount of hormones that can be pumped into it. There comes a point at which government regulation effectively means taking over a given part of our economy. Let's take the case of an automobile. It's yours. You paid for it. You possess the pink slip. Now, the government decides that some new regulations are in order. Here they are. . . 1. You cannot drive you car on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 2. On Tuesdays and Thursdays you must allow your neighbor to use your car. 3. On the other days, you may not drive before 6AM nor after 10PM. 4. On the days you drive to work you must, at your own expense, provide transportation to at least one other person. 5. When you drive, you may not drive outside a prescribed zone not more than 15 miles from your house, except when you are driving to work. When commuting, you must take the shortest route possible both going and retur5ning, and you may not deviate from that route. 6. In cases of declared emergencies, you must relinquish use of your car to authorized emergency personnel. Now, it's still your care, right? You still have that pink slip. And, of course, you must pay for gasoline, oil, parts, maintenance, etc. But is it really still your car? Or is it de facto the government's car that is provisionally in your possession and for which you must provide necessary money for maintenance and operating expenses? You may say that my example is ridiculous. But is it? What are rent control laws but cases in which the government takes possession, if only in part, of private property? Certainly rent control laws in effect are taking from the rightful owners part of the income that they would otherwise enjoy. Today's collectivists realize that there are real disadvantages inherent in taking legal possession of goods or purveyors of services. Much better to regulate and regulate until the government has control but not de jure ownership. Let the poor sap who still thinks he is the owner remain liable for expenses when government regulations cause problems. And, of course, the government can always excoriate the "legal owners" and blame any problems on them. Isn't that what Obama is even now doing by blaming insurance companies for the failures of the ObamaCare debut? Get the point? AzWm
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Post by aztec70 on Nov 4, 2013 12:33:44 GMT -8
I am going to give ACA some time to work out the wrinkles. It was a huge task that was made much more difficult by the intransigence of the GOP. I can recall no other program that the opposition has continued to fight after it has passed. It is highly disengenous for the GOP to complain about the rollout of ACA when they tried their best to kill it.
Time will tell.
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Post by aztecwin on Nov 4, 2013 13:28:01 GMT -8
I am going to give ACA some time to work out the wrinkles. It was a huge task that was made much more difficult by the intransigence of the GOP. I can recall no other program that the opposition has continued to fight after it has passed. It is highly disengenous for the GOP to complain about the rollout of ACA when they tried their best to kill it. Time will tell. What roll out are you talking about? Do you mean the six people who signed up the first day?
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Post by aztec70 on Nov 4, 2013 13:43:41 GMT -8
I am going to give ACA some time to work out the wrinkles. It was a huge task that was made much more difficult by the intransigence of the GOP. I can recall no other program that the opposition has continued to fight after it has passed. It is highly disengenous for the GOP to complain about the rollout of ACA when they tried their best to kill it. Time will tell. What roll out are you talking about? Do you mean the six people who signed up the first day? My neighbor, who is self-employed, tells me he is saving almost $5,0000 dollars and has signed up. So it working for some people.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Nov 4, 2013 13:57:57 GMT -8
What roll out are you talking about? Do you mean the six people who signed up the first day? My neighbor, who is self-employed, tells me he is saving almost $5,0000 dollars and has signed up. So it working for some people. Odd, I know zero people in my facility that have saved money and many are being forced to use it. In fact, it is quite the topic here. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by aztecwin on Nov 4, 2013 13:58:29 GMT -8
What roll out are you talking about? Do you mean the six people who signed up the first day? My neighbor, who is self-employed, tells me he is saving almost $5,0000 dollars and has signed up. So it working for some people. I do not believe that nor should you. Ask about copay and deductible.
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Post by aztec70 on Nov 4, 2013 14:06:42 GMT -8
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Post by aztec70 on Nov 4, 2013 19:29:25 GMT -8
My neighbor, who is self-employed, tells me he is saving almost $5,0000 dollars and has signed up. So it working for some people. Odd, I know zero people in my facility that have saved money and many are being forced to use it. In fact, it is quite the topic here. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards My neighbor was buying an individual policy for his family and himself. Were your co-workers covered through their employment?
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Post by 78aztec82 on Nov 4, 2013 19:43:19 GMT -8
Odd, I know zero people in my facility that have saved money and many are being forced to use it. In fact, it is quite the topic here. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards My neighbor was buying an individual policy for his family and himself. Were your co-workers covered through their employment? Some are 1099 employees, other small business folks, other larger companies. A variety. As of today, I have not met one person who has saved money. I have met many that couldn't keep their plans despite the President's assurances when he was selling the plan.
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