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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 17, 2012 14:52:33 GMT -8
Your suggestion would be? . Not let them starve. That is NOT an answer to the basic problem, which is that the welfare states of Europe, no doubt with the best of intentions, have gone down a fiscal path that ends is a very sudden and long drop off a cliff. Obviously, when so many people for so many years have become accustomed to very generous government benefits, a lot of those people are going to experience pain when impending bankruptcy requires that the benefits be reduced. But, and forgive me to using my standby analogy, it's like the story of the man with the severe leg infection. Doctor says, "Sorry, it's gangrene; we must amputate." Patient says, "But in that case I won't be able to run or jump or dance, and I've been doing those things all my life." Doctor says; "Okay, you decide. Keep the leg and die within a few days or have us amputate and you can live on with a serious disability. But, you WILL live." The Europeans, and someday we Americans, don't want to hear that. Reality can really hang you up the most (to mangle the title of an old song). AzWm |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 18, 2012 1:26:35 GMT -8
Still waiting.......................... Just because you have been joined by another dimwit does not stop the clock from ticking and you are on the clock.  A dimwit would be a retired goverment drone calling the editors of Bloomberg dimwits.  Keep your eyes on the news, fellows. IMF changing their minds about austerity, Bloomberg News calling for austerity to be eased. The tide is changing. And then what? How are these countries going to solve their messes? Their fiscal situations are not only harming Europe writ large but the world economy. If they don't solve their economic problems, it runs the risk of igniting a world economic meltdown. So, what do you suggest? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 18, 2012 7:04:28 GMT -8
A dimwit would be a retired goverment drone calling the editors of Bloomberg dimwits. Keep your eyes on the news, fellows. IMF changing their minds about austerity, Bloomberg News calling for austerity to be eased. The tide is changing. And then what? How are these countries going to solve their messes? Their fiscal situations are not only harming Europe writ large but the world economy. If they don't solve their economic problems, it runs the risk of igniting a world economic meltdown. So, what do you suggest? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Don't promote conditions that foster fascism. That is what I suggest. If it took generations for them to get out into this mess, don't expect Greece to get out of it in four or five years. We need to ask ourselves who and why did banks lend Greece so much money that they could make such a mess? If those loans had not been made would this problem now exist? Would Greece have had to change their system a generation ago if these loans would not have been made? Do the lenders bear some responsibility for the Greek mess? We have to ask ourselves how did we get a global financial system where the problems of a country with a GDP of less than one percent of the whole can threaten the entire financial system? That, to me, is a vital question. |
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Post by aztecwin on Oct 18, 2012 14:01:33 GMT -8
And then what? How are these countries going to solve their messes? Their fiscal situations are not only harming Europe writ large but the world economy. If they don't solve their economic problems, it runs the risk of igniting a world economic meltdown. So, what do you suggest? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Don't promote conditions that foster fascism. That is what I suggest. If it took generations for them to get out into this mess, don't expect Greece to get out of it in four or five years. We need to ask ourselves who and why did banks lend Greece so much money that they could make such a mess? If those loans had not been made would this problem now exist? Would Greece have had to change their system a generation ago if these loans would not have been made? Do the lenders bear some responsibility for the Greek mess? We have to ask ourselves how did we get a global financial system where the problems of a country with a GDP of less than one percent of the whole can threaten the entire financial system? That, to me, is a vital question. I see you don't recognize that it is liberal policy failures that have created the conditions that now exist. I find that funny. |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 18, 2012 15:25:21 GMT -8
Don't promote conditions that foster fascism. That is what I suggest. If it took generations for them to get out into this mess, don't expect Greece to get out of it in four or five years. We need to ask ourselves who and why did banks lend Greece so much money that they could make such a mess? If those loans had not been made would this problem now exist? Would Greece have had to change their system a generation ago if these loans would not have been made? Do the lenders bear some responsibility for the Greek mess? We have to ask ourselves how did we get a global financial system where the problems of a country with a GDP of less than one percent of the whole can threaten the entire financial system? That, to me, is a vital question. I see you don't recognize that it is liberal policy failures that have created the conditions that now exist. I find that funny. What policys are you speaking of? |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 19, 2012 1:13:46 GMT -8
And then what? How are these countries going to solve their messes? Their fiscal situations are not only harming Europe writ large but the world economy. If they don't solve their economic problems, it runs the risk of igniting a world economic meltdown. So, what do you suggest? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Don't promote conditions that foster fascism. That is what I suggest. If it took generations for them to get out into this mess, don't expect Greece to get out of it in four or five years. We need to ask ourselves who and why did banks lend Greece so much money that they could make such a mess? If those loans had not been made would this problem now exist? Would Greece have had to change their system a generation ago if these loans would not have been made? Do the lenders bear some responsibility for the Greek mess? We have to ask ourselves how did we get a global financial system where the problems of a country with a GDP of less than one percent of the whole can threaten the entire financial system? That, to me, is a vital question. the question is, how do you fix the Greek problem? They first threw money at it, then they tried to ease the burden, neither worked, next they realized that they had to live within their means. Perhaps a way is to grandfather pensioners and then force the workforce to work full work weeks and perhaps save a little for their own retirement instead of a lavish social contract? The system can't survive as it is and they have to do something to correct the imbalance. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Oct 19, 2012 8:09:45 GMT -8
The question is, how do you fix the Greek problem? I'm not an economist so the total solution is beyond me. However, they could start by enforcing their existing tax rules and make sure that all citizens pay their appropriate taxes. In much of Europe, dodging taxes is a national sport. I read some where that at many as 50% of the people who should be paying taxes, don't. It is also a major problem in the other countries that have problems; Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. Why is Germany so solid? Germans pay their taxes. Having massive government benefits without an income is really tough. www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/09/greece-tax-evasion-professional-classes |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 19, 2012 10:04:11 GMT -8
Don't promote conditions that foster fascism. That is what I suggest. If it took generations for them to get out into this mess, don't expect Greece to get out of it in four or five years. We need to ask ourselves who and why did banks lend Greece so much money that they could make such a mess? If those loans had not been made would this problem now exist? Would Greece have had to change their system a generation ago if these loans would not have been made? Do the lenders bear some responsibility for the Greek mess? We have to ask ourselves how did we get a global financial system where the problems of a country with a GDP of less than one percent of the whole can threaten the entire financial system? That, to me, is a vital question. the question is, how do you fix the Greek problem? They first threw money at it, then they tried to ease the burden, neither worked, next they realized that they had to live within their means. Perhaps a way is to grandfather pensioners and then force the workforce to work full work weeks and perhaps save a little for their own retirement instead of a lavish social contract? The system can't survive as it is and they have to do something to correct the imbalance. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Well, pensions have already been cut 60%. You say make the workforce work full time. The unemployment rate is 25%. It seems to me that you would profit by reading the articles I have posted. You seem to know little about what is happening in Greece. By the way, they are about to throw more money at Greece. The Euro leaders are impressed with the cutbacks in Greece, and there is also concern about the Greek economy and the rise of domestic anti-bailout partys. |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 19, 2012 10:56:53 GMT -8
the question is, how do you fix the Greek problem? They first threw money at it, then they tried to ease the burden, neither worked, next they realized that they had to live within their means. Perhaps a way is to grandfather pensioners and then force the workforce to work full work weeks and perhaps save a little for their own retirement instead of a lavish social contract? The system can't survive as it is and they have to do something to correct the imbalance. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Well, pensions have already been cut 60%. You say make the workforce work full time. The unemployment rate is 25%. It seems to me that you would profit by reading the articles I have posted. You seem to know little about what is happening in Greece. By the way, they are about to throw more money at Greece. The Euro leaders are impressed with the cutbacks in Greece, and there is also concern about the Greek economy and the rise of domestic anti-bailout partys. No need to patronize. I perhaps falsely assumed we could talk more broadly. If onerous workplace restrictions were reduced, businesses could hire some and perhaps adding in some government incentives or even work projects, the economy would spark a bit. Glad to hear that austerity is starting to work. Thanks for reporting it. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 19, 2012 12:02:48 GMT -8
Well, pensions have already been cut 60%. You say make the workforce work full time. The unemployment rate is 25%. It seems to me that you would profit by reading the articles I have posted. You seem to know little about what is happening in Greece. By the way, they are about to throw more money at Greece. The Euro leaders are impressed with the cutbacks in Greece, and there is also concern about the Greek economy and the rise of domestic anti-bailout partys. No need to patronize. I perhaps falsely assumed we could talk more broadly. If onerous workplace restrictions were reduced, businesses could hire some and perhaps adding in some government incentives or even work projects, the economy would spark a bit. Glad to hear that austerity is starting to work. Thanks for reporting it. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who admits they don't want to read the article that gives the background on the issue to be discussed. |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 19, 2012 12:23:52 GMT -8
No need to patronize. I perhaps falsely assumed we could talk more broadly. If onerous workplace restrictions were reduced, businesses could hire some and perhaps adding in some government incentives or even work projects, the economy would spark a bit. Glad to hear that austerity is starting to work. Thanks for reporting it. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who admits they don't want to read the article that gives the background on the issue to be discussed. I did. Not the point. My point was about having a discussion, not throwing links up and not telling what they think is important and worth talking about...that's what I like about discussion boards. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 19, 2012 13:32:17 GMT -8
It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who admits they don't want to read the article that gives the background on the issue to be discussed. I did. Not the point. My point was about having a discussion, not throwing links up and not telling what they think is important and worth talking about...that's what I like about discussion boards. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Okay |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 19, 2012 13:43:47 GMT -8
I'm not here to read news. I can do that elsewhere. I am here to have interesting discourse. I enjoy discussion and challenging others although have much less time these days. Sadly.
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Post by aztecwin on Oct 19, 2012 15:22:29 GMT -8
I see you don't recognize that it is liberal policy failures that have created the conditions that now exist. I find that funny. What policys are you speaking of? Years of irresponsible social spending has put Greece in a horrible spot. |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 19, 2012 16:33:24 GMT -8
What policys are you speaking of? Years of irresponsible social spending has put Greece in a horrible spot. Oh, I thought you trying to blame Obama for it.  Yes, they were too generous. To change that too quickly is hard on people. I don't think pushing people into poverty to punish them is a workable solution. Cutting pensions 60% is a hard pill to swallow. I imagine there are many people you know that depend on their federal pensions to live. How would they cope with 60% pension cut? |
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Post by aztecwin on Oct 20, 2012 6:26:27 GMT -8
Years of irresponsible social spending has put Greece in a horrible spot. Oh, I thought you trying to blame Obama for it. Yes, they were too generous. To change that too quickly is hard on people. I don't think pushing people into poverty to punish them is a workable solution. Cutting pensions 60% is a hard pill to swallow. I imagine there are many people you know that depend on their federal pensions to live. How would they cope with 60% pension cut? There has to be some pain or there can be no progress toward solving the problem(s). Hard to pin this one on obama. He already is responsible for enough pain here at home. |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 20, 2012 6:38:50 GMT -8
Years of irresponsible social spending has put Greece in a horrible spot. Oh, I thought you trying to blame Obama for it. Yes, they were too generous. To change that too quickly is hard on people. I don't think pushing people into poverty to punish them is a workable solution. Cutting pensions 60% is a hard pill to swallow. I imagine there are many people you know that depend on their federal pensions to live. How would they cope with 60% pension cut? Roll back the pension cuts a little, offer some breaks and time-limited programs to those grandfathered, continue the austerity in most areas. Reduce burden on large and small businesses, etc. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by aztecwin on Oct 20, 2012 6:58:00 GMT -8
Oh, I thought you trying to blame Obama for it. Yes, they were too generous. To change that too quickly is hard on people. I don't think pushing people into poverty to punish them is a workable solution. Cutting pensions 60% is a hard pill to swallow. I imagine there are many people you know that depend on their federal pensions to live. How would they cope with 60% pension cut? Roll back the pension cuts a little, offer some breaks and time-limited programs to those grandfathered, continue the austerity in most areas. Reduce burden on large and small businesses, etc. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Now that sounds like it was posted from someone who knows that offering a solution carries more weight than just some goofy remark like "Don't let them starve", without a suggested course of action. But then, we all know who can think and who can't! |
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Post by 78aztec82 on Oct 20, 2012 9:14:59 GMT -8
 Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards |
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Post by podpeople on Oct 20, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -8
why dont we send all the Americans that are out of work so that they can build some infrastructure out there. I'd go.
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