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Post by azteccc on Mar 13, 2017 12:48:49 GMT -8
This is really what it is. The issue, as I see it, is the board owners don't want to admit that this is a fundamental choice they are facing. They are currently making their choice VERY clear without even knowing/admitting they're making it. You persist in this nonsense. We cannot just take sides and play favorites. "Well, that opinion is OK, but that other one isn't." If we do that then that takes away the ability of the board members to post their honest opinions. You don't want people here whose opinions you don't like. Frankly, that's just not right. This is supposed to be an INclusive board, where members are free to post their honest opinions as long as they don't break forum rules - but that's not good enough for some of you. Well, that's just too damned bad. We're NOT going to say which opinions are OK and which ones aren't. We're not going to allow rule breaking, so when someone IS abusing the system and is clearly posting things just to get under the skin of other board members we will take action and remove that member (as we have done dozens of times over the years, including in just the last couple of weeks). You have no solutions. You just want people banned when you don't like their style or opinions. Well, that's just weak. If you disagree with someone, persuade them. Don't just demand that they be removed from the board. Again, if someone IS guilty of trolling send us the links by PM. Don't ass/u/me that we've seen the offending posts and just don't care. Like I said, you're making your choice very clear. It's just a shame, because this place used to be better. Sorry if you can't see what is happening. Sorry if some of your long time posters with way more productive information and insight to offer (definitely not me...) are trying to get this across to you. We honestly cannot tell if you're doing this with a wink-wink nod-nod, or if you cannot grasp what we are trying to tell you. But again, referenced above, you are making a blatant choice by your actions and non-actions - on a problem that is not enviable by any means but is inherent in running an ever-growing message board - and the product is suffering because of it. Deflect all you want, that's fine. The feedback you're receiving really is just an honest assessment from those who see what is allowed these days, as compared to a time in the past when it was not allowed and the overall quality of discourse was better. This is not opinion, it is reality. Whether you accept that reality or not doesn't change it. And I did give you a suggestion, multiple times. Get one or two additional mods in that are more liberal with the censor button. You've been offered help to work on site plugins.
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Post by longtimebooster on Mar 13, 2017 13:15:54 GMT -8
Let me explain something to the snowflake community. Just because more people are saying we suck does not mean everyone is a troll. The reason no one is talking about SDSU on any of the tournament shows today is because we sucked. You play NCAA basketball to win championships. We didn't do any of that this season. I'd say snowflakes are ruining this board and the program. You are content with showing up to games to watch a mediocre product. You prefer ticket prices remain low so you can continue to attend. Trolls as you call them prefer to be in the running to win championships each year. We want to be like the Arizona, Gonzaga, or Butlers of the world. I'd consider someone who lashes out at athletes on message boards just because they didn't win to their liking as much more of a "snowflake". Did Starbucks give you the wrong color coffee cup this morning? Again, the issue has nothing to do with "snowflakes" or posters who say we suck. We do/did. I hate Izundu's waste of oxygen on the offensive side of the court. I can't stand that Pope and Allen couldn't stop taking a shuffle step at the beginning of each dribble for 3/4 of the season (resulting in untold traveling calls.) It irritates me that Kell and Hemsley dribble with their heads down. I'm angry that Fish almost never seems to be able to sign a legit big man. I can't stand the blue hair who sits in behind me who tells me to shut up and sit down when we're down by 1 with 30 seconds to play. I lost faith in Rocky Long and called for him to be fired last year. I can't stand the last four QBs we've had at State. The next legitimate receiver Rocky Long recruits will be his first. I think Hirshman is a traitor. I think SDSU has it's head up its collective @ss when it comes to MV West. Having said all that, I have no issue with those with decent minds, logic and typing skills saying negative things about SDSU. Trolls, however, are horses of a completely different color. Please see the definition of a troll as stated above if you find yourself confused in any way on the topic.
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Post by missiontrails on Mar 13, 2017 13:48:51 GMT -8
I'd consider someone who lashes out at athletes on message boards just because they didn't win to their liking as much more of a "snowflake". Did Starbucks give you the wrong color coffee cup this morning? Again, the issue has nothing to do with "snowflakes" or posters who say we suck. We do/did. I hate Izundu's waste of oxygen on the offensive side of the court. I can't stand that Pope and Allen couldn't stop taking a shuffle step at the beginning of each dribble for 3/4 of the season (resulting in untold traveling calls.) It irritates me that Kell and Hemsley dribble with their heads down. I'm angry that Fish almost never seems to be able to sign a legit big man. I can't stand the blue hair who sits in behind me who tells me to shut up and sit down when we're down by 1 with 30 seconds to play. I lost faith in Rocky Long and called for him to be fired last year. I can't stand the last four QBs we've had at State. The next legitimate receiver Rocky Long recruits will be his first. I think Hirshman is a traitor. I think SDSU has it's head up its collective @ss when it comes to MV West. Having said all that, I have no issue with those with decent minds, logic and typing skills saying negative things about SDSU. Trolls, however, are horses of a completely different color. Please see the definition of a troll as stated above if you find yourself confused in any way on the topic. No confusion on my part. AlohaB on the other hand....
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 13:49:25 GMT -8
See my last post above. And people aren't making personal attacks on the players and coaches, they are making professional attacks aimed at their job performances. When you take a position like coaching at a college or agree to take a scholarship (worth tens of thousands of dollars) to play for a college criticism comes with that territory. You and I must have different opinions on this, but I would consider something like calling Fisher 'too old to be capable of doing his job', or calling D'Erryl Williams 'a waste of a scholarship' as personal attacks. No one is saying Coach Fisher isn't a great human being. No one is criticizing him, personally. The criticism of him has to do with his ability to do his job. That's completely professional, not the least bit personal. And the coaches and players are public figures, so criticism comes with the territory. They're big boys, they knew what comes along with the jobs (and playing scholarship sports is a job - you're getting tens of thousands of dollars worth of scholarship money to play for the school). They don't need the protection of message board members. Now, I don't subscribe to the idea that Fisher has passed his coaching expiration date. I think he's still capable of taking the Aztecs into the 2018 NCAA Tournament. But if someone else believes otherwise then it's up to me (and others who share my view on Coach Fisher) to persuade that person that they're wrong and Coach Fisher is still a very, VERY good coach. Some people just aren't good at being subtle or persuasive and they post with the finesse of a sledgehammer. That's an issue with style. But board members have the right to be wrong, and they have the right to insist that they aren't wrong and to stand up for what they believe in. Look, after Cal Poly 1 I went on a rampage against Chuck Long on the previous board, and I was called a troll (among other less pleasant things), but in the end I was right and the people who said Chuck should get more time were wrong. I wasn't trolling - I was just scared to death that he'd run the program so far down that it would never recover. Fortunately, after 70-7 a critical mass was reached and Jeff Schemmel had no choice but to fire Chuck. It took two more years, but eventually all but a handful of Aztec fans realized that Chuck Long was in WAY over his head. But the majority opinion had been that Chuck Long was bringing a change to the culture and knew what he was doing - until his last year when it became clear that he was the worst Head Coach in Aztec football history. Going against the grain and repeatedly posting unpopular opinions doesn't make someone a troll. I don't think that anyone would equate Coach Fisher with Chuck Long. Coach Fisher has actually had a ton of success. But he is 70 years old or so, and it's not unfair to ask whether or not he's passed his prime and is no longer as effective as a head coach should be. That's a fair question - one that I would answer, "No, he can still coach at a very high level," but if someone disagrees with that and says so in a foreceful, unpersuasive way that doesn't necessarily make them a troll. Just someone who isn't good at changing peoples' minds. The bottom line is simply this - if there is a problem, don't just assume that the mod staff is seeing the same thing you are and is OK with the status quo. Send a PM with a link to the posts in question and let us investigate. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Doing nothing but ass/u/ming is part of the problem.
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Post by missiontrails on Mar 13, 2017 13:54:44 GMT -8
You and I must have different opinions on this, but I would consider something like calling Fisher 'too old to be capable of doing his job', or calling D'Erryl Williams 'a waste of a scholarship' as personal attacks. No one is saying Coach Fisher isn't a great human being. No one is criticizing him, personally. The criticism of him has to do with his ability to do his job. That's completely professional, not the least bit personal. And the coaches and players are public figures, so criticism comes with the territory. They're big boys, they knew what comes along with the jobs (and playing scholarship sports is a job - you're getting tens of thousands of dollars worth of scholarship money to play for the school). They don't need the protection of message board members. Now, I don't subscribe to the idea that Fisher has passed his coaching expiration date. I think he's still capable of taking the Aztecs into the 2018 NCAA Tournament. But if someone else believes otherwise then it's up to me (and others who share my view on Coach Fisher) to persuade that person that they're wrong and Coach Fisher is still a very, VERY good coach. Some people just aren't good at being subtle or persuasive and they post with the finesse of a sledgehammer. That's an issue with style. But board members have the right to be wrong, and they have the right to insist that they aren't wrong and to stand up for what they believe in. Look, after Cal Poly 1 I went on a rampage against Chuck Long on the previous board, and I was called a troll (among other less pleasant things), but in the end I was right and the people who said Chuck should get more time were wrong. I wasn't trolling - I was just scared to death that he'd run the program so far down that it would never recover. Fortunately, after 70-7 a critical mass was reached and Jeff Schemmel had no choice but to fire Chuck. It took two more years, but eventually all but a handful of Aztec fans realized that Chuck Long was in WAY over his head. But the majority opinion had been that Chuck Long was bringing a change to the culture and knew what he was doing - until his last year when it became clear that he was the worst Head Coach in Aztec football history. Going against the grain and repeatedly posting unpopular opinions doesn't make someone a troll. I don't think that anyone would equate Coach Fisher with Chuck Long. Coach Fisher has actually had a ton of success. But he is 70 years old or so, and it's not unfair to ask whether or not he's passed his prime and is no longer as effective as a head coach should be. That's a fair question - one that I would answer, "No, he can still coach at a very high level," but if someone disagrees with that and says so in a foreceful, unpersuasive way that doesn't necessarily make them a troll. Just someone who isn't good at changing peoples' minds. The bottom line is simply this - if there is a problem, don't just assume that the mod staff is seeing the same thing you are and is OK with the status quo. Send a PM with a link to the posts in question and let us investigate. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Doing nothing but ass/u/ming is part of the problem. So you've established that because an athlete is on scholarship PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE OK. Got it. It's your board. Reap the consequences. Well, you are already, so I guess I didn't need to say that.
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Post by azteccc on Mar 13, 2017 13:55:01 GMT -8
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 14:02:22 GMT -8
So you've established that because an athlete is on scholarship PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE OK. Got it. It's your board. Reap the consequences. Well, you are already, so I guess I didn't need to say that. So criticizing someone for their ability (or inability) to do a highly paid, high profile job is personal? In what universe? I don't agree with ANYONE who says that Coach Fisher should retire (unless he wants to retire, and even then I'd still rather have him stay on as HC), but they have the right to that opinion.
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Post by ab on Mar 13, 2017 14:03:08 GMT -8
This thread is both sad and funny at the same time.
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Post by northcountymike on Mar 13, 2017 14:03:38 GMT -8
If IYO Mike, Aztec basketball has been generally unsuccessful, please explain. You have just highlighted one of the problems – I never said that Aztec basketball has been "generally unsuccessful." You assume that about me or believe that's what I think. All I implied was that we've been concentrating and "stuck" on how bad we were and how much better we became. You can infer from that what you'd like I suppose. Sooner than later, we're going to get tired of saying how good we were....4 years ago, 5, years ago, 6 years ago, and so on.
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Post by northcountymike on Mar 13, 2017 14:04:27 GMT -8
Well said. Now that I think about it, I can remember in the past trolls being run for being trolls. Not any more. Yes, when Fembone was mod she'd ban-hammer fairly frequently (or extremely frequently if you compare to current mods) and this was a much more pleasant board to visit. Thank God for the FB page. And no, trolls, we're not precious snow-flakes there either. We disagree plenty, but are respectful. Well, that would be a first, haha.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 14:07:24 GMT -8
gif posted with the point of being part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. You may not remember, but the last time we asked for volunteers we weren't exactly flooded with offers. So you can say, "Get another mod or two," all you like, but the reality is there are damned few people here who have proven themselves to be trustworthy enough for the job, and fewer still who are willing to do it without pay...
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Post by missiontrails on Mar 13, 2017 14:10:35 GMT -8
So you've established that because an athlete is on scholarship PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE OK. Got it. It's your board. Reap the consequences. Well, you are already, so I guess I didn't need to say that. So criticizing someone for their ability (or inability) to do a highly paid, high profile job is personal? In what universe? I don't agree with ANYONE who says that Coach Fisher should retire (unless he wants to retire, and even then I'd still rather have him stay on as HC), but they have the right to that opinion. I never mentioned "criticism". I mentioned personal attacks. Did you nail down the universe I'm talking about yet?
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 14:13:31 GMT -8
So criticizing someone for their ability (or inability) to do a highly paid, high profile job is personal? In what universe? I don't agree with ANYONE who says that Coach Fisher should retire (unless he wants to retire, and even then I'd still rather have him stay on as HC), but they have the right to that opinion. I never mentioned "criticism". I mentioned personal attacks. Did you nail down the universe I'm talking about yet? What personal attacks have there been against Coach Fisher? Saying that he's too old to do his job well? That's not personal, that's professional. I have read a total of ZERO comments saying anything remotely negative about him as a person. And, again, I want to make it clear - I do not agree with the opinion that Coach Fisher is no longer effective and can't do his job well anymore. I believe he can. But if someone disagrees, even if that opinion is based on age, that isn't personal because it's all about job performance and the ability to do the job well.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 14:15:30 GMT -8
One more thing, maybe you weren't here, but the criticism towards our mod staff (me included) was that we laid down the ban hammer and warnings too often. There were threads just like this one, but for the opposite reason. So which is it? Do we ban too many people or not enough? We've had mini revolts for both reasons.
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Post by northcountymike on Mar 13, 2017 14:17:12 GMT -8
It's not rocket science, dude. Fembone would give a warning (to those fitting LTB's troll definition above) and if it wasn't heeded she'd lay the ban-hammer down. Are you being disingenuous or are you really still not getting it? This. C'mon Aztec Panther, I love you, man, and don't envy your job on this board. But this is an SDSU fan board, not a first amendment zone where anyone can say anything anytime as long as they're semi-nice about it. That can't be your only criteria. And, again, if you can't discern a troll from a garden-variety knucklehead with a negative opinion, maybe you shouldn't be in the cockpit. As for NCM, he clearly fits the troll category. If you'd like -- and I really don't want to have to resort to this, but will if it might sate your intellectual curiosity -- I can go through a dozen or two dozen valid, initially interesting/relevant threads utterly hijacked, devolved and destroyed by NCM. Yes, he's a nice guy. Yes, he's polite. No, he doesn't resort to name calling (in fact, the reverse is probably true -- he gets called plenty of names.) But that can't be the only standard. The guy is a troll through and through. He oozes disingenuity. He hijacks threads constantly. He makes everything about himself. He starts random arguments for the sake of starting random arguments. He is persistently, maliciously negative. Anytime he says something even slightly leaning toward positivity, he adds a backhanded compliment to balance things out. And I could go on. And on. And on. Again, if you'd like, I'll walk you through examples. And, no, I have a thick skin and can go mano-a-mano (or keyboard-a-keyboard, if you like) with anyone on the Internet. I have no issue with people who are p*ssed about SDSU, mad about a loss, angry about a player's performance, etc., ad nauseam. But the problem with trolls is that they feast on push back. And love causing a commotion and wreaking havoc. They aren't here for the opinions, discussions, facts, or information. They're just here for the sport of making everyone else miserable. And because of soft moderators like yourself, their mission is perpetually accomplished. Disagree. Threads are only "destroyed" because you let them be...actively taking part in a thread "hijack" as you call it makes you part of the problem as well, does it not? Real trolls don't get as many responses as I have because maybe real "fans" understand when a true troll is just trying to get a rise out of someone and they leave it alone. Alas, here you go again, claiming that I try to make something all about me – which is far from the truth. YOU make it about me when you respond or call me out by name or reference me in other threads. So, wah wah about me posting something that you don't like. If you don't like it, don't respond. If you've blocked me and you're tired of seeing my posts show up because others respond to them, why don't you try to censor them or pick and choose who's opinions you want to read in certain threads? I'm not on this site to make people's lives miserable; I'm here to state my opinions, and yes, to disagree with others. If your life is miserable, that's because of you or maybe the fact that you somehow let me make it miserable. Might I suggest going down to the Y and playing some basketball? I mean, it has been a little over a week since we last heard of your exploits on the rec league court (is that back-handed enough for ya?) .
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Post by azteccc on Mar 13, 2017 14:20:13 GMT -8
One more thing, maybe you weren't here, but the criticism towards our mod staff (me included) was that we laid down the ban hammer and warnings too often. There were threads just like this one, but for the opposite reason. So which is it? Do we ban too many people or not enough? We've had mini revolts for both reasons. Whatever man. Like I've said more than once now, you are making clear which side of the fence you're on. It's not a democracy, you's in charge, so however you want to rule is what's going to happen (as is quite obvious, here). Just sad that we've collectively turned a great site into what it is now. You've got people trying to tell you something, and instead of listening you're becoming defensive and accusatory. Again, your prerogative to be sure.
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Post by DeeMoney on Mar 13, 2017 14:24:01 GMT -8
If I can hold a conversation with someone in a crowded bar with annoying hipsters all around, then we can all just ignore annoying posters who are trolling anyways.
Here is some advice:
It is okay to let people post things you disagree with or is obviously false, especially from trolls. You don't need to correct them or engage them at all. You don't have to respond to a troll, even if he quotes you. It doesnt mean you lost an argument or make you less of a man, in fact it probably means you are more of one. You probably aren't the only one who realizes someone who is a troll is an idiot or wrong; we all see it, no need to acknowledge it. Even if someone is being horribly insulting, and over the top (and they have others agreeing), just let it go. Or at the very least start to type a reply, read it, realize you are right, but then realize that correcting someone on a message board (especially someone who is just trolling anyways) doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things; then close the tab without posting.
The overarching theme here: a wise man said don't argue with fools.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Mar 13, 2017 14:25:13 GMT -8
One more thing, maybe you weren't here, but the criticism towards our mod staff (me included) was that we laid down the ban hammer and warnings too often. There were threads just like this one, but for the opposite reason. So which is it? Do we ban too many people or not enough? We've had mini revolts for both reasons. Whatever man. Like I've said more than once now, you are making clear which side of the fence you're on. It's not a democracy, you's in charge, so however you want to rule is what's going to happen (as is quite obvious, here). Just sad that we've collectively turned a great site into what it is now. You've got people trying to tell you something, and instead of listening you're becoming defensive and accusatory. Again, your prerogative to be sure. How about being clear - you just want more people banned. That's fine, when they earn a banning by violating forum rules, some people will get banned. But what would you suggest to make this board better, then? Don't just criticize, offer up solutions or shut up about it. It's easy to be the squeaky wheel and complain, but it's not so easy to come up with solutions. All you've done throughout this thread is attack without offering up anything of substance to really help make anything better. So you can offer up a real, workable idea that would help solve issues, or you can continue to be a troll yourself. And don't say, "Get another mod," because we've tried that and no one trustworthy wants to do it. (And FishnAztec has done a great job, so we've got a third mod already!)
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Post by azteccc on Mar 13, 2017 14:36:38 GMT -8
Whatever man. Like I've said more than once now, you are making clear which side of the fence you're on. It's not a democracy, you's in charge, so however you want to rule is what's going to happen (as is quite obvious, here). Just sad that we've collectively turned a great site into what it is now. You've got people trying to tell you something, and instead of listening you're becoming defensive and accusatory. Again, your prerogative to be sure. How about being clear - you just want more people banned. That's fine, when they earn a banning by violating forum rules, some people will get banned. But what would you suggest to make this board better, then? Don't just criticize, offer up solutions or shut the f x x x up. It's easy to be the squeaky wheel and complain, but it's not so easy to come up with solutions. All you've done throughout this thread is attack without offering up anything of substance to really help make anything better. So you can offer up a real, workable idea that would help solve issues, or you can continue to be a troll yourself. And don't say, "Get another mod," because we've tried that and no one trustworthy wants to do it. What exactly have I "attacked"? Funny, you think I've attacked what... your site?... and in return you attack me. Isn't that against your own rules that you yourself created? Don't we common folk get in trouble when we attack someone for attacking players? Hmm... Again, like I've said already, you can't create the rules yourself and then hide behind them as a reason to not take action, so let's stop with that. I'm not trying to engage you any further, dude. I'm really not. Call it whatever you'd like, there are people who deserve much more respect than I, and have much more pertinent information on a daily basis that are telling you the exact same thing. If you consider ME a "squeaky wheel", then you should know that there are multiple wheels already spinning off the highway a mile back. Do I want more people banned? It doesn't matter what I want, yo! It matters what YOU want. And you routinely come down on the side of posters who make this site worse more often than they add any substance. Not a different opinion, I know you keep repeating that, but just pure garbage. Garbage that any reasonable people can see for what it is, not stuff that is an unpopular opinion but rhetoric that is childish, hateful and uninformed. The thread is called "Are trolls ruining this site?"... The answer is simple - yes. Call them whatever you want (if troll is offensive based on ATalk days), a troll by any other name is just as trollish.
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Post by missiontrails on Mar 13, 2017 14:36:44 GMT -8
I never mentioned "criticism". I mentioned personal attacks. Did you nail down the universe I'm talking about yet? What personal attacks have there been against Coach Fisher? Saying that he's too old to do his job well? That's not personal, that's professional. I have read a total of ZERO comments saying anything remotely negative about him as a person. And, again, I want to make it clear - I do not agree with the opinion that Coach Fisher is no longer effective and can't do his job well anymore. I believe he can. But if someone disagrees, even if that opinion is based on age, that isn't personal because it's all about job performance and the ability to do the job well. Here, I'll give you hours upon hours of quality reading..... aztecmesa.proboards.com/user/2808/recentHere's just one quick example. Interpret as you wish..... "Where did you go you wuss? did you crawl under your rock little boy? I was spot on and you were wrong and you look like an idiot now.! Keep idolizing this dumb coach of ours!" Like I have already said a couple of times, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in - It's not whether people are "allowed" to attack as such, it's that you are losing numerous quality posters because of it, which further advances the decline of this board. You can turn a blind eye all you want, but that won't save this board from sinking into oblivion. Your choice.
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