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Post by aztecfury on Jan 25, 2015 15:36:25 GMT -8
I feel like the full court press has been a lot more detrimental than beneficial lately for the team. Other teams are getting a lot of easy transition buckets, I remember seeing a few plays where colorado literally just quickly ran past press straight to the hoop to score unopposed or a step back 3.
Yesterday, we would stop pressing when colorado started to get away, get close to them then start pressing, and they would get away again, rinse and repeat.
If you have 2 of our guys trying to trap that leaves one of their guys open for an easy 3 or drive to the basket.
I don't even remember us actually getting any turnovers off it, Colorado only had 5 turnovers total.
If the other team has good ball handlers we should not be wasting energy constantly pressing. If they don't have good ball handlers like UNLV, we should press.
Thoughts?
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Post by Zuma on Jan 25, 2015 15:47:25 GMT -8
The press will give up easy baskets, but it should cause more turnovers, making it a worthwhile strategy. It also is used to try to slow down a high scoring team, and try to get them to run their set from their secondary or tertiary ball handler. Some times, it just doesn't work, which is what we saw yesterday. They had it scouted well, and hopefully we keep it up, but throw a few different wrinkles into it next time we play them.
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Post by aztech on Jan 25, 2015 16:12:21 GMT -8
I feel like the full court press has been a lot more detrimental than beneficial lately for the team. Other teams are getting a lot of easy transition buckets, I remember seeing a few plays where colorado literally just quickly ran past press straight to the hoop to score unopposed or a step back 3. Yesterday, we would stop pressing when colorado started to get away, get close to them then start pressing, and they would get away again, rinse and repeat. If you have 2 of our guys trying to trap that leaves one of their guys open for an easy 3 or drive to the basket. I don't even remember us actually getting any turnovers off it, Colorado only had 5 turnovers total. If the other team has good ball handlers we should not be wasting energy constantly pressing. If they don't have good ball handlers like UNLV, we should press. Thoughts? CSU has a lot of upperclassmen. They don't get flustered by full court presses. We should have known that.
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Post by aztecwin on Jan 25, 2015 16:16:00 GMT -8
That flurry of threes in the beginning just should never happen. That is incredible luck. Take that away and we win the game. I would keep doing the same thing.
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Post by AccessBowlTime on Jan 25, 2015 16:50:25 GMT -8
The full court press is who we are. In fact, Fish has worked hard at getting a 9-man rotation to allow us to use it. It should be retained.
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Post by Lloyd on Jan 25, 2015 17:11:26 GMT -8
I've been thinking about that for several weeks. Against some teams it has been effective, but against others I think we would be better off setting up the half court defense, where we are usually very difficult to score against.
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Post by aztecbb on Jan 25, 2015 17:44:25 GMT -8
Wrong. We have more and better athletes We will turn them over and they will not hit those NBA 3's @ viejas...we win by 10.
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Post by sdsustoner on Jan 25, 2015 17:48:36 GMT -8
It wasn't the press itself that was the issue.
Lacking in several stretches of the game was intensity on defense. Guys standing straight up and reacting a step slow. You do that against a veteran squad who can beat the press and move the ball, you're done if they got hot shooting. Which is what happened
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Post by aztech on Jan 25, 2015 17:54:47 GMT -8
It wasn't the press itself that was the issue. Lacking in several stretches of the game was intensity on defense. Guys standing straight up and reacting a step slow. You do that against a veteran squad who can beat the press and move the ball, you're done if they got hot shooting. Which is what happened +1
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Post by DeeMoney on Jan 25, 2015 19:48:31 GMT -8
I feel like the full court press has been a lot more detrimental than beneficial lately for the team. Other teams are getting a lot of easy transition buckets, I remember seeing a few plays where colorado literally just quickly ran past press straight to the hoop to score unopposed or a step back 3. Yesterday, we would stop pressing when colorado started to get away, get close to them then start pressing, and they would get away again, rinse and repeat. If you have 2 of our guys trying to trap that leaves one of their guys open for an easy 3 or drive to the basket. I don't even remember us actually getting any turnovers off it, Colorado only had 5 turnovers total. If the other team has good ball handlers we should not be wasting energy constantly pressing. If they don't have good ball handlers like UNLV, we should press. Thoughts? Ive been feeling this for a while now. I dont mind when we press as much as when we go heavy with the trap. It seems as if our opponents Pts/possesion far outweighs what we may get off of turnovers. Now there is the intangible of wearing them out that may be a factor though
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Post by merkarrand on Jan 25, 2015 21:04:25 GMT -8
The press is predicated by initial pressure on the Ball by the point, Requires.Fluidity, anticipation, length, lateral quickness, drop step,recovery,cutting angles off, constant pressure on the ball, at all times and speed....:POLEE is THAT missing ingredient!~ The success with the press, started with the UNM comeback win, last season and ended with Arizona in the sweet 16..This year Polee was relegated to back row or #2..Cannot press with Obrien, Shrigley,Quinn, Kell as a 1! THEY Do not have the needed ingresients, or tenancity of Polee when he gets his motor warmed up. Shepherd as the #2 position trapping with Polee, not many teams were able to get past there length and quickness...Saw a bit of this against Cincy this year, Polee and Shepherd forced two steals, that Polee converted into two quick baskets. Then he was immediately removed from the game and then blamed for the loss by taking him out of the starting line up the next game. Sucks!!
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Post by aztecdan8 on Jan 26, 2015 0:28:10 GMT -8
I feel like the full court press has been a lot more detrimental than beneficial lately for the team. Other teams are getting a lot of easy transition buckets, I remember seeing a few plays where colorado literally just quickly ran past press straight to the hoop to score unopposed or a step back 3. Yesterday, we would stop pressing when colorado started to get away, get close to them then start pressing, and they would get away again, rinse and repeat. If you have 2 of our guys trying to trap that leaves one of their guys open for an easy 3 or drive to the basket. I don't even remember us actually getting any turnovers off it, Colorado only had 5 turnovers total. If the other team has good ball handlers we should not be wasting energy constantly pressing. If they don't have good ball handlers like UNLV, we should press. Thoughts? I remember only 1 turnover off the press, it was CSUs first possession of the second half. Our press was mostly worthless last night. We either need to press more aggressively, or back it way off when playing experienced teams that have good guards. Do the math- we had 1 steal that lead to 2 points, they busted our press 3 times for 3 easy layups/ I could be forgetting more press breaks.
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Post by oc74aztec on Jan 26, 2015 1:38:19 GMT -8
I feel like the full court press has been a lot more detrimental than beneficial lately for the team. Other teams are getting a lot of easy transition buckets, I remember seeing a few plays where colorado literally just quickly ran past press straight to the hoop to score unopposed or a step back 3. Yesterday, we would stop pressing when colorado started to get away, get close to them then start pressing, and they would get away again, rinse and repeat. If you have 2 of our guys trying to trap that leaves one of their guys open for an easy 3 or drive to the basket. I don't even remember us actually getting any turnovers off it, Colorado only had 5 turnovers total. If the other team has good ball handlers we should not be wasting energy constantly pressing. If they don't have good ball handlers like UNLV, we should press. Thoughts? I remember only 1 turnover off the press, it was CSUs first possession of the second half. Our press was mostly worthless last night. We either need to press more aggressively, or back it way off when playing experienced teams that have good guards. Do the math- we had 1 steal that lead to 2 points, they busted our press 3 times for 3 easy layups/ I could be forgetting more press breaks. In our loss to Fresno State we had no or few turnovers too. Some teams do a better job of breaking the press than others, but we still run it because it tends to wear out a team by the end of the game because of our depth. That might have led to our comeback Saturday. They quit hitting their shots at a rapid rate because they were getting worn down. When we pulled to 73-72 going into the final media timeout, I expected a win. The two shots they hit in the final 3+ minutes were hard, in your face shots that they made, not easy give-mes from a defensive lapse.
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Post by DeeMoney on Jan 26, 2015 6:43:00 GMT -8
There is a 69% correlation between our defensive turnover % and defensive efficiency. This number is very high, I don't have the backlog of numbers with me now; but somewhere I have the correlation stats for teams over the past few years and don't remember many teams being this high (VCU only went that high once in the past few years for example).
This doesn't mean that we need to press, more of an indicator of what we do.
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Post by gigglyforshrigley on Jan 26, 2015 7:12:09 GMT -8
I absolutely hated playing against teams who pressed... and so did everyone else that I knew. As a player it absolutely sucks and you hope the other team isn't a pressing team. I say we keep doing it, but we need to be smarter with it because we did give up too many buckets from them beating it. Even if you're not getting turnovers it's exhausting and stressful as an offensive player to play against it and can really wear you out.
I don't think we should read too much into that CSU game though, its tough when a team gets hot like that. We were contesting a lot of those threes and they were still dropping. Teams get hot in any given night in the game of basketball, and when something like that happens there isn't much you can do about it. Our defense was solid, they just were hitting everything (and we still almost won)
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Post by Xoxoctic Xonacah on Jan 26, 2015 8:28:21 GMT -8
I wonder what role the officiating, and specifically what appeared to be a willingness to call close fouls, had on our press and the overall defense in this ColoradoSt game. Dakarai seemed to get called a lot more than usual, three in the first half, not to mention Angelo's three within a minute. I wonder how quickly D'Erryl would have been called had he gone in. I really like watching him press the opposing point with so much energy when he gets in. If it wasn't overzealous officiating, were the boys just trying too hard/unlucky, or did ColoradoSt force them? More importantly, did these early fouls make us tentative? Perhaps dialing back the press early when the refs are being hard-asses, then dialing it up again late when the other team is tired could be a strategy against more experienced teams?
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Post by aztecdan8 on Jan 26, 2015 8:33:14 GMT -8
I'm not saying we shouldn't press anymore, but it seems like our press is not leading to turnovers, and as a result easy baskets/offense.
I'd like to see variations of the press, at times with more aggression. If you watched how Cincinnati pressed us, or how VCU or Louisvilke press, it's more aggressive- they front guys on the inbound pass - we usually don't. They rotate guys up and around so if the initial ball handler passes out of that double team, the next guy is over playing that, which leads to steals, then the same for the next guy.
It's a little higher risk, but at times worth it. We fell apart when the Bearcats hit with that super aggressive press, and that was, IMO, what cost us the game.
I'd also love to see us press more softly than we do, but trap like maniacs right as team cross half court.
I'd love to see other variations in addition. I think if we really mixed up things, it would really get to teams, turn up our D a bit more at times - I know it's pretty darn good now- I think it could give us the edge in our toughest games.
Let's face it, creating turnovers off the press is really needed this season as our O struggles so much.
I feel like we are well scouted now. Any skilled/good team is not bothered by our style of press, it hasn't benefitted us in our losses turnover-wise and easy offense-wise. Iso, I'd like see us crank it up and also vary the press so teams didn't know what they were going to see next.
We have the athletes/ players and depth to do it.
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Post by aztecdan8 on Jan 26, 2015 8:34:40 GMT -8
I wonder what role the officiating, and specifically what appeared to be a willingness to call close fouls, had on our press and the overall defense in this ColoradoSt game. Dakarai seemed to get called a lot more than usual, three in the first half, not to mention Angelo's three within a minute. I wonder how quickly D'Erryl would have been called had he gone in. I really like watching him press the opposing point with so much energy when he gets in. If it wasn't overzealous officiating, were the boys just trying too hard/unlucky, or did ColoradoSt force them? More importantly, did these early fouls make us tentative? Perhaps dialing back the press early when the refs are being hard-asses, then dialing it up again late when the other team is tired could be a strategy against more experienced teams? Very good point. IMO, several if those fouls were horrible. They took dimensions of our team out of play for most of the game.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 8:51:08 GMT -8
Colorado State will not play better than that the rest of the season Wyoming held CSU to 34% shooting and 14% from 3. No way Wyoming is a better defense than us. We made Avila look like a NBA first round pick but he will be playing in Europe most likely or D League CSU made 5 Three's in about 4 minutes. And many were deep and contested. That's just the way the game is although I admit I underestimated the Rams based on close games against bad comp and their Wyoming game. But we got Pope going and even CSU admitted they are scared of him. So I am not concerned at all. Plus we should have won anyway we just can't hit Free Throws. In fact with the exception of the UW game we should be undefeated if you consider FT's. We played 3 games in 11 days at altitude and went back and forth long distance against good teams. If our players could have somehow taken their classes online ,which I can't see why they can't, we would very likely have won because you could see the fatigue in some of our starters. I don't see any other MWC team even coming close to that schedule especially with expectations of being a MWC champ.
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Post by legkick on Jan 26, 2015 9:00:01 GMT -8
The primary reasons the team can't effectively full court press are: (1) no Dwayne Polee; and (2) more Malik Pope on the court. The former had great defensive instincts for positioning and gambling for steals; the latter is mostly lost on defense.
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