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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 9, 2014 12:30:38 GMT -8
It's going to take boots on the ground to destroy ISIS. Period. If they aren't destroyed soon they will spread out to other countries and become unstoppable. And they have publicly stated that their goal is to attack us here in the worst ways possible. They've got a couple hundred American citizens with American passports in their ranks, so they can easily attack us here if they're smart. Boots on the ground mopping up after overwhelming air attacks. That's what we need, followed up by special forces tracking down the stragglers who get away. Short of that? We lose containment. We have given, or sold, billions of dollars worth of equipment and training to the Saudis. Let them do it.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 9, 2014 13:42:55 GMT -8
It's going to take boots on the ground to destroy ISIS. Period. If they aren't destroyed soon they will spread out to other countries and become unstoppable. And they have publicly stated that their goal is to attack us here in the worst ways possible. They've got a couple hundred American citizens with American passports in their ranks, so they can easily attack us here if they're smart. Boots on the ground mopping up after overwhelming air attacks. That's what we need, followed up by special forces tracking down the stragglers who get away. Short of that? We lose containment. We have given, or sold, billions of dollars worth of equipment and training to the Saudis. Let them do it. AAA, the Saudis are not against ISI, they are funding them, as they do many illicit Sunni groups. This is our problem, not theirs. They have bought their security. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 9, 2014 14:49:35 GMT -8
We have given, or sold, billions of dollars worth of equipment and training to the Saudis. Let them do it. AAA, the Saudis are not against ISI, they are funding them, as they do many illicit Sunni groups. This is our problem, not theirs. They have bought their security. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards Stu: I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. Except that I do agree with your statement that the Saudi's "have bought their security". They have bought it from us! Hence my reference to us being the Saudi's "Hessians" in a previous post. I also agree that they fund many illicit Sunni groups and probably, at least initially, funded ISIS. However, when they declared their Caliphate they became a direct threat to ALL of the Arab princes in the gulf as well as to any Muslim government of any type. I hope you enjoyed yourself in NC. Sorry I missed it.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 9, 2014 15:10:50 GMT -8
AAA, the Saudis are not against ISI, they are funding them, as they do many illicit Sunni groups. This is our problem, not theirs. They have bought their security. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards Stu: I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. Except that I do agree with your statement that the Saudi's "have bought their security". They have bought it from us! Hence my reference to us being the Saudi's "Hessians" in a previous post. I also agree that they fund many illicit Sunni groups and probably, at least initially, funded ISIS. However, when they declared their Caliphate they became a direct threat to ALL of the Arab princes in the gulf as well as to any Muslim government of any type. I hope you enjoyed yourself in NC. Sorry I missed it. Not fully, they pay off terrorists and bankroll them so they dont get attacked. As long as they continue, it'll keep them safe. We are in more danger than they. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 9, 2014 15:20:51 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Sept 9, 2014 16:48:23 GMT -8
The last three paragraphs sum it up pretty clearly.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 10, 2014 8:04:35 GMT -8
Not a bad historical analysis. Too bad he threw in the partisan right-wing crap at the end.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 10, 2014 14:59:11 GMT -8
Here's what BHO should do in his speech tonight:.
1.) Explain to the American people that those who are decapitating children, murdering prisoners, burying people alive, etc., are not just contemptible, loathsome representatives of the worst the human race has to offer. Make clear that they are a clear and present danger not only to the countries in the Middle East but also to the West in general. Explain that there would never be a way that such a country as the "Islamist State" could ever be accepted into the community of nations. Explain that to do so would be the equivalent of allowing the Third Reich into the UN had the war ended in a draw with Hitler still murdering people at will. Explain that our goal must be nothing less than the annihilation of the "Islamist State."
2.) Explain that we have ahead of us a very long, difficult task that will require us to pay a very high cost in treasure and quite possibly in blood, as well. Explain that we will do everything we can to rally friendly fighters in the area to carry the fight to the IS with our very extensive support. Explain that our support will consist of advisors, huge amounts of weapons and equipment, continual air support, and economic efforts to limit the resources of the IS. (All this would require a monumental effort on the part of the President since his background clearly has made him at least somewhat sympathetic to the thinking of anti-Americans both here and abroad. If he were to do this, I would applaud him and raise my estimation of him immensely.) In any event, make clear that our goal is the destruction of the IS, every bit as much as was our goal to destroy Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Whatever is necessary we will do.
3.) Make clear that you are (for once) not going to list all the things we are NOT going to do. Make clear that all will be made clear in due time, which is exactly what we did in World War II; you will recall that we did not announce on the First of June, 1944, that we would be landing thousands of soldiers on the shores of Normandy in a few days.
4.) Stop using the words "I," "me," and "my" so damned much. Start looking like you have at least a vague idea that you are not god, that you do not have some magical powers to solve problems simply on the strength of your wonderful personality. Even Presidents of the United States are, in the final analysis, people who were very lucky to have made it to the Oval Office. They are, despite the "Most powerful man in the world" crap actually very limited in what they can do. Well, limited in what they can do legally. Also, pretend like you understand that Republicans, and for that matter anyone else who disagrees with you, are loyal Americans who simply see things from a different viewpoint.
Finally, Mr. President, if you cannot wholeheartedly support the points above, be honest about that. Tell the American People something like this:
My fellow Americans. The Middle East in indeed in turmoil. News coming out of the region is bad, even terrible. However, we should not get involved. In good conscience I cannot support further military action in Iraq and surrounding areas. Therefore, I declare now that my goal to do nothing. Let those people sort out there own problems; we have too many unresolved problems right here in the United States.
We'll see what the President actually says.
AzWm
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 10, 2014 16:30:00 GMT -8
^^^ Thank god you don't make America's foreign policy. Equating this to WWII is laughable. It is easy for chicken-hawks to demand that we send other Americans to a foreign land to die for nothing. The politicians who created Vietnam had never seen combat or even served. The same thing happened in Iraq II.
Let the Arabs clean their own house.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 10, 2014 17:09:17 GMT -8
^^^ Thank god you don't make America's foreign policy. Equating this to WWII is laughable. It is easy for chicken-hawks to demand that we send other Americans to a foreign land to die for nothing. The politicians who created Vietnam had never seen combat or even served. The same thing happened in Iraq II. Let the Arabs clean their own house. Actually, John F Kennedy, who gave us Vietnam, was a Navy line officer who captained PT boats in the Pacific during WWII. The ISIS/L fight is ours, not just Arabs. As I've psotted in two threads, it wouldn't take a lot of ground troops bit some would be needed. I suspect we have our will have over a thousand on the ground soon anyway. We had some in Sinjar to help clear ISIL from the Yazidis and secure their exit. We're already involved and our expertise and leadership is needed our we'll be fighting then here. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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Post by William L. Rupp on Sept 10, 2014 17:52:52 GMT -8
^^^ Thank god you don't make America's foreign policy. Equating this to WWII is laughable. It is easy for chicken-hawks to demand that we send other Americans to a foreign land to die for nothing. The politicians who created Vietnam had never seen combat or even served. The same thing happened in Iraq II. Let the Arabs clean their own house. Oh, my goodness; where to begin. The reference to World War II was to make a couple of obvious points. First, in WWII we declared that our objective was to destroy the Nazis and Imperial Japan. We did not talk about degrading or managing them. Clarity of purpose is essential. The second parallel is also obvious. You do not put your cards face up on the table so the other players can see how strong a hand you have. In WWII, as a matter of fact, we went to great lengths to convince the Nazis that we were going to land in the Pas de Calais area rather than Normandy; that was what the Germans expected, so they were only too glad to take the bait. President Obama has a habit of putting way too many cards on the table face up. We must stop doing that. Furthermore, if you had read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I did not mention sending ground troops, though Obama has actually begun doing that under the cover of helping protect our embassy personnel, etc. The essential question is this; can we afford to stand aside and let matters take their own course while making no attempt to influence the outcome one way or another? Taking that position is tempting, I admit. I think it would be short sighted, however. And, yes, the locals (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, etc.) should help us. And the Europeans too. After all, the latter are the ones who will be in serious trouble if the Islamic State decides that major action against the West, such as invading Saudi Arabia and holding oil shipments hostage, is called for. I wouldn't put it past the bastards. But doing nothing unless our "friends and allies" make major commitments of men and materiel is a risky course of action in and of itself. It's a hell of a mess, for sure. There are no easy answers. AzWm
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 11, 2014 7:58:00 GMT -8
^^^ Thank god you don't make America's foreign policy. Equating this to WWII is laughable. It is easy for chicken-hawks to demand that we send other Americans to a foreign land to die for nothing. The politicians who created Vietnam had never seen combat or even served. The same thing happened in Iraq II. Let the Arabs clean their own house. Actually, John F Kennedy, who gave us Vietnam, was a Navy line officer who captained PT boats in the Pacific during WWII. The ISIS/L fight is ours, not just Arabs. As I've psotted in two threads, it wouldn't take a lot of ground troops bit some would be needed. I suspect we have our will have over a thousand on the ground soon anyway. We had some in Sinjar to help clear ISIL from the Yazidis and secure their exit. We're already involved and our expertise and leadership is needed our we'll be fighting then here. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards Yes, I know Kennedy was a Navy vet and a hero. Actually, it was Eisenhower who initially put boots on the ground when the French left. But I was referring to Kennedy's "Whiz Kids" who provided the information and justification for the war to Kennedy. They also were instrumental in the political micro managing of the war throughout the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. I should have been more specific.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 11, 2014 7:59:13 GMT -8
It's a hell of a mess, for sure. There are no easy answers. AzWm I sure agree with that.
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Post by azson on Sept 11, 2014 9:58:48 GMT -8
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 11, 2014 11:53:49 GMT -8
Actually, John F Kennedy, who gave us Vietnam, was a Navy line officer who captained PT boats in the Pacific during WWII. The ISIS/L fight is ours, not just Arabs. As I've psotted in two threads, it wouldn't take a lot of ground troops bit some would be needed. I suspect we have our will have over a thousand on the ground soon anyway. We had some in Sinjar to help clear ISIL from the Yazidis and secure their exit. We're already involved and our expertise and leadership is needed our we'll be fighting then here. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards Yes, I know Kennedy was a Navy vet and a hero. Actually, it was Eisenhower who initially put boots on the ground when the French left. But I was referring to Kennedy's "Whiz Kids" who provided the information and justification for the war to Kennedy. They also were instrumental in the political micro managing of the war throughout the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. I should have been more specific. Just a point of clarification, the Whiz Kids were staffers and advisors, not politicians as you were initially pointing out. Ultimately the President and his leaders are invested in the responsibility in decisions and their staff action. They take their lead and direction from their leaders. It is the leadership that does the micromanaging, the staffers are merely the tools they use. It was the President and Vice President who failed to listen to their career State and Defense career civil servants. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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Post by aztecwin on Sept 11, 2014 12:45:18 GMT -8
Does anyone think that the Countries that support Obama is enough? Do we need Sunni led Countries to stop paying blackmail to ISIS and other terror groups and join the effort to root terrorists out if we are going to have any semblance or hope for stability and security? I think we need to recognize and voice the idea that we are the targets of a one sided "holy war" With Radical Islam. Sort of the opposite of a crusade. I know the risk of how that would be viewed and skewed in the Middle East, but how about a clear picture for the Western Countries that are targets?
Once again I will say we have got to have a commitment to an end or there will be no end.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Sept 11, 2014 15:17:38 GMT -8
Does anyone think that the Countries that support Obama is enough? Do we need Sunni led Countries to stop paying blackmail to ISIS and other terror groups and join the effort to root terrorists out if we are going to have any semblance or hope for stability and security? I think we need to recognize and voice the idea that we are the targets of a one sided "holy war" With Radical Islam. Sort of the opposite of a crusade. I know the risk of how that would be viewed and skewed in the Middle East, but how about a clear picture for the Western Countries that are targets? Once again I will say we have got to have a commitment to an end or there will be no end. We are not the only targets of ISIS. In fact, we aren't even in the top 5. They are Sunni radicals and believe ANYONE who is not them deserves to die. That means ALL other Muslim sects first as they are apostate. Both Sunni and Shiite nations need to get together to wipe ISIS out. Unfortunately, that won't happen as they hate each other. Can you guess what would have happened if Iran sent troops into Iraq to help?
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 11, 2014 15:33:41 GMT -8
Does anyone think that the Countries that support Obama is enough? Do we need Sunni led Countries to stop paying blackmail to ISIS and other terror groups and join the effort to root terrorists out if we are going to have any semblance or hope for stability and security? I think we need to recognize and voice the idea that we are the targets of a one sided "holy war" With Radical Islam. Sort of the opposite of a crusade. I know the risk of how that would be viewed and skewed in the Middle East, but how about a clear picture for the Western Countries that are targets? Once again I will say we have got to have a commitment to an end or there will be no end. We are not the only targets of ISIS. In fact, we aren't even in the top 5. They are Sunni radicals and believe ANYONE who is not them deserves to die. That means ALL other Muslim sects first as they are apostate. Both Sunni and Shiite nations need to get together to wipe ISIS out. Unfortunately, that won't happen as they hate each other. Can you guess what would have happened if Iran sent troops into Iraq to help? I understand but we are a target and they are well financed and growing in lethality. It is much better to get them now while they are contained before they spread out of containment. Our job is to facilitate a global response but we have abilities that other nations don't. If we are to lead, we need to lead from the front. I am no chicken hawk, I know these guys, they won't relent if you don't hit them hard. My brilliant and decidedly not conservative wife just watched a news cast that had a video of both twin towers burning and unprovoked said "ISIS is 10 times worse than al Qaeda. She gets it. Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Sept 12, 2014 16:20:08 GMT -8
A clarification, when the President limits military support to not include "boots on the ground" it is the direct combat troops and advisors he is talking about. We have something like 1600 military there now or on the way.
Limitations on the flexibility of his sworn leaders to accomplish his CT (counter-terrorism) goals are numbing. We have the best honed CT expertise in the SOF community ever assembled, now is the time to let them achieve his goals, leveraging a tiny amount of professionals to assist local and regional forces and guide our airpower while it is reasonably contained.
The consequences of failure really sucks.
Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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