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Post by tuff on Aug 27, 2012 7:31:06 GMT -8
Interesting how you have eased away from the term "single payer" to "universal health care". I don't think they are necessarily interchangeable. But, as to the "plumber" link you demand: www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/11/plumber-charges-neurosurgeon.htmlI will add to that with a personal observation. I recently visited the doctor, and he billed $267.00. Medicare approved $175.84. I recently had a plumber fix a plumbing problem for me, and he charged $180.00. The time consumed by the providers were roughly the same. The plumber did such a good job, I tipped him 20 bucks. Now, IMO, when you manage to force a third of a billion people into a single payer (read: government) system, the providers are not going to get paid much. The good ones will find something else to do with their lives, and the "system" will retain mostly incompetent quacks. It's also interesting that you Anglicize your spelling. I suppose you think that makes you look "intelligent". It doesn't. It only makes you look like an arrogant prick. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe its due to the fact I was born and educated in Australia? Im sorry if I offended you with my education in British spelling. So youre criticising me because of my way in which I was educated, not my opinion? Is this a f****** joke? A physican/surgeon makes 3 times the average wage of a plumber. This is pretty much relative across most OECD countries. The plumber = surgeon story is a load of bull$#!+. Check the US Department of Labor before you lie. And your opinion is wrong on skills and universal healthcare. OECD countries maintain as good if not better healthcare indicators as the States all with the government setting the rules. The "system" is continuing to provide better healthcare in Germany, France and many other European countries at a fraction of the cost. Physicians per capita are as high as the privatised system in the states, so there goes that myth that all physicians will leave the profession or wont be attracted to it. I don't think anyone is saying that all physicians will leave, but most certainly the older ones will. The problem will be getting new ones to come out of med school into a sysyem that will not pay them very well as before, and have a gigantic amount of govt. paperwork to fill out ta boot. I have a cousin in Germany who informed his 2 sons to leave their med school and pursue other careers. He has to work for the sytem by day at $XX.00 per patient which is peanuts, and go home and practice privately for a few hours to make any decent money.
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Post by tuff on Aug 27, 2012 7:33:26 GMT -8
The current system has to be changed. The pay at the point of service model is failing a large majority of Americans economically. Medically related bankruptcy's have increase significantly. Now we are at a point were over 50% of bankruptcy's are medically related. Its both morally and economically wrong. Do these bankruptcies come as a result from surgical bills, or long term care.??
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Aug 27, 2012 8:55:56 GMT -8
Sorry about your parents and I am glad you didn't have any problems with Medicare. I had a long afternoon with my orthopedic surgeon and his family yesterday and these were a few points discussed.. And we were talking about obamacare not medicare. I do have a question for you about your parents medicare coverage if you can remember, Did they have a supplemental policy and with whom? Thank you for your kind words. My parents did have a supplemental policy. It was Blue Cross and was offered by the local farmer's co-op in Tennessee where they retired. It paid the 20% that Medicare didn't. Never had a problem with it either.
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Post by davdesid on Aug 27, 2012 12:04:01 GMT -8
Interesting how you have eased away from the term "single payer" to "universal health care". I don't think they are necessarily interchangeable. But, as to the "plumber" link you demand: www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/11/plumber-charges-neurosurgeon.htmlI will add to that with a personal observation. I recently visited the doctor, and he billed $267.00. Medicare approved $175.84. I recently had a plumber fix a plumbing problem for me, and he charged $180.00. The time consumed by the providers were roughly the same. The plumber did such a good job, I tipped him 20 bucks. Now, IMO, when you manage to force a third of a billion people into a single payer (read: government) system, the providers are not going to get paid much. The good ones will find something else to do with their lives, and the "system" will retain mostly incompetent quacks. It's also interesting that you Anglicize your spelling. I suppose you think that makes you look "intelligent". It doesn't. It only makes you look like an arrogant prick. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe its due to the fact I was born and educated in Australia? Im sorry if I offended you with my education in British spelling. So youre criticising me because of my way in which I was educated, not my opinion? Is this a f****** joke? A physican/surgeon makes 3 times the average wage of a plumber. This is pretty much relative across most OECD countries. The plumber = surgeon story is a load of bull$#!+. Check the US Department of Labor before you lie. And your opinion is wrong on skills and universal healthcare. OECD countries maintain as good if not better healthcare indicators as the States all with the government setting the rules. The "system" is continuing to provide better healthcare in Germany, France and many other European countries at a fraction of the cost. Physicians per capita are as high as the privatised system in the states, so there goes that myth that all physicians will leave the profession or wont be attracted to it. Well, blimey! You ask for links, I provide, and you say "bull$#!+". You provide links and assertions, and I call "bull$#!+". You are not going to change my mind on the subject. Just for grins: finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.htmlProfessor Kotlikoff makes his case by comparing the livelihoods of plumbers and doctors. Yes, doctors have a bigger salary. But, doctors have to endure nearly a decade of expensive education before making any real salary, after which the doctor is hit by a very high progressive tax rate. Because of all the costs the doctor incurs, the taxes and the lost wages, he says, "plumbers make more, and have almost the same spending power over their lifetime as general practitioners."With single payer that would only get worse. And plumbers don't get sued nearly as often or for nearly as much. You won't get enough competent doctors to serve a third of a billion people.
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Post by davdesid on Aug 27, 2012 14:15:37 GMT -8
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Post by tuff on Aug 27, 2012 15:44:19 GMT -8
Sorry about your parents and I am glad you didn't have any problems with Medicare. I had a long afternoon with my orthopedic surgeon and his family yesterday and these were a few points discussed.. And we were talking about obamacare not medicare. I do have a question for you about your parents medicare coverage if you can remember, Did they have a supplemental policy and with whom? Thank you for your kind words. My parents did have a supplemental policy. It was Blue Cross and was offered by the local farmer's co-op in Tennessee where they retired. It paid the 20% that Medicare didn't. Never had a problem with it either. My Mom had major back surgery and Medicare did pick up a lot of it. Thank God for the supplement policy with USAA to cover the rest. Maybe this is the way to go with all our healthcare. Who knows??
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Aug 27, 2012 15:51:54 GMT -8
Thank you for your kind words. My parents did have a supplemental policy. It was Blue Cross and was offered by the local farmer's co-op in Tennessee where they retired. It paid the 20% that Medicare didn't. Never had a problem with it either. My Mom had major back surgery and Medicare did pick up a lot of it. Thank God for the supplement policy with USAA to cover the rest. Maybe this is the way to go with all our healthcare. Who knows?? That has been my suggestion for years. It really does work. Hope everything worked out ok for your mom.
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Post by burrito on Aug 28, 2012 21:28:46 GMT -8
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe its due to the fact I was born and educated in Australia? Im sorry if I offended you with my education in British spelling. So youre criticising me because of my way in which I was educated, not my opinion? Is this a f****** joke? A physican/surgeon makes 3 times the average wage of a plumber. This is pretty much relative across most OECD countries. The plumber = surgeon story is a load of bull$#!+. Check the US Department of Labor before you lie. And your opinion is wrong on skills and universal healthcare. OECD countries maintain as good if not better healthcare indicators as the States all with the government setting the rules. The "system" is continuing to provide better healthcare in Germany, France and many other European countries at a fraction of the cost. Physicians per capita are as high as the privatised system in the states, so there goes that myth that all physicians will leave the profession or wont be attracted to it. Well, blimey! You ask for links, I provide, and you say "bull$#!+". You provide links and assertions, and I call "bull$#!+". You are not going to change my mind on the subject. Just for grins: finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.htmlProfessor Kotlikoff makes his case by comparing the livelihoods of plumbers and doctors. Yes, doctors have a bigger salary. But, doctors have to endure nearly a decade of expensive education before making any real salary, after which the doctor is hit by a very high progressive tax rate. Because of all the costs the doctor incurs, the taxes and the lost wages, he says, "plumbers make more, and have almost the same spending power over their lifetime as general practitioners."With single payer that would only get worse. And plumbers don't get sued nearly as often or for nearly as much. You won't get enough competent doctors to serve a third of a billion people. Wow. Did you even read that link you posted and watch the video or read the study you were commenting on? Your quote was completely out of context. He was saying that expensive education is not worth it. It says it in the first line! "A new study from Princeton University shows that expensive college degrees are not necessarily worth the lofty price tagsHe reiterates a study conducted by esteemed Prof. Alan Krueger that shows that an expensive top tier education does not give on average a significant economic advantage compared to that of a cheap tuition school. It looks at solely monetary investment for your education and shows that a private four-year education will not net you a significant advantage over a state four-year (costs could even be reduced by going to CC for 2). The conclusion of the study has nothing to do with whether a doctor is better remunerated than a plumber, rather, it is an insight into the idea that a financial investment of a private four-year with extended learning at private schools is no more beneficial financially than a state educated student who lives at home. Even the author of the article manages to take the conclusions out of context with the bit about the plumber. Lastly, can you please explain to me how countries who implement universal healthcare have higher physician rates than the current US privatised system. Im not picking sides on the last point, I want to know why you think the genuine reasons are for low attraction and retention rates in the US compared to other other universal healthcare implementing OECD countries.
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