Evidence that ObamaCare will kill Americans.

[AztecWilliam]

You think that the title of this thread is alarmist? Read Hentoff's article and see whether you have changed your mind on that question.

www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/07/24/what_still_shocks_me_about_obamacare_114891.html

AzWm

[Deja Vu U Monty]

Nice article. Now go read the 100's of thousands of articles out there about what HMO's, and to some extent PPO's, have been doing for the past 30 or 40 years. Essentially the same thing. They tend to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship as well by not allowing cutting edge, expensive new treatments. I don't think they are government run organizations. I think the insurance companies today are private companies. We may indeed be an era where we are trading individual lives for money. But the insurance companies have been doing it for decades. And I still see no evidence that if manufacturers received these tax breaks that they would pass the savings on to insurance companies, doctors, hospital, etc. Obamacare isn't going to determine what my insurance company does. Their bottom line will.

[JOCAZTEC]

And the HMOs and PPOs were the product of your government passing laws in and around 1978 that made is SO easy to sue your doctors. The passage of these laws was like Eve biting the apple, and the medical industry went dark.

Pass tort reform and let the Doctors doctor and you won't need any government help.

Just ask the Doctors, not the democRats...

HAM Tax/TH PL

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Jul 24, 2012 13:39:06 GMT -8 JOCAZTEC said:

And the HMOs and PPOs were the product of your government passing laws in and around 1978 that made is SO easy to sue your doctors. The passage of these laws was like Eve biting the apple, and the medical industry went dark.

Pass tort reform and let the Doctors doctor and you won't need any government help.

Just ask the Doctors, not the democRats...

HAM Tax/TH PL

We've already discussed "tort reform" ad nauseum. Try discussing an issue instead of spouting RepubliCant talking points.

[aztecwin]

Jul 24, 2012 11:38:44 GMT -8 Deja Vu U Monty said:

Nice article. Now go read the 100's of thousands of articles out there about what HMO's, and to some extent PPO's, have been doing for the past 30 or 40 years. Essentially the same thing. They tend to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship as well by not allowing cutting edge, expensive new treatments. I don't think they are government run organizations. I think the insurance companies today are private companies. We may indeed be an era where we are trading individual lives for money. But the insurance companies have been doing it for decades. And I still see no evidence that if manufacturers received these tax breaks that they would pass the savings on to insurance companies, doctors, hospital, etc. Obamacare isn't going to determine what my insurance company does. Their bottom line will.

There have been lots of discussions about HMOs, PPOs, fee for service vice managed care and before Obama Kare it was clear to me that an individual was better off going to a doctor and having the doctor be your advocate with your payer than going to a HMO type organization where the bottom line is better served by withholding expensive service. Your Doctor is best served by giving you the best needed care possible. Obama Kare would change that and it will not be nearly so clear with the extra layer of "death panels" or what ever you want to call the rationing bureaucracy who will ration your care. I hope it does not come to that and enough States opt out, Congress defunds ACA (ObamaKare) and Romney replaces obama.

[aztec70]

Jul 24, 2012 15:56:01 GMT -8 aztecwin said:

Jul 24, 2012 11:38:44 GMT -8 Deja Vu U Monty said:

Nice article. Now go read the 100's of thousands of articles out there about what HMO's, and to some extent PPO's, have been doing for the past 30 or 40 years. Essentially the same thing. They tend to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship as well by not allowing cutting edge, expensive new treatments. I don't think they are government run organizations. I think the insurance companies today are private companies. We may indeed be an era where we are trading individual lives for money. But the insurance companies have been doing it for decades. And I still see no evidence that if manufacturers received these tax breaks that they would pass the savings on to insurance companies, doctors, hospital, etc. Obamacare isn't going to determine what my insurance company does. Their bottom line will.

There have been lots of discussions about HMOs, PPOs, fee for service vice managed care and before Obama Kare it was clear to me that an individual was better off going to a doctor and having the doctor be your advocate with your payer than going to a HMO type organization where the bottom line is better served by withholding expensive service. Your Doctor is best served by giving you the best needed care possible. Obama Kare would change that and it will not be nearly so clear with the extra layer of "death panels" or what ever you want to call the rationing bureaucracy who will ration your care. I hope it does not come to that and enough States opt out, Congress defunds ACA (ObamaKare) and Romney replaces obama.

What do you mean when you say "having the doctor be your advocate with your payer"?

[Deja Vu U Monty]

Jul 24, 2012 15:56:01 GMT -8 aztecwin said:

Jul 24, 2012 11:38:44 GMT -8 Deja Vu U Monty said:

Nice article. Now go read the 100's of thousands of articles out there about what HMO's, and to some extent PPO's, have been doing for the past 30 or 40 years. Essentially the same thing. They tend to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship as well by not allowing cutting edge, expensive new treatments. I don't think they are government run organizations. I think the insurance companies today are private companies. We may indeed be an era where we are trading individual lives for money. But the insurance companies have been doing it for decades. And I still see no evidence that if manufacturers received these tax breaks that they would pass the savings on to insurance companies, doctors, hospital, etc. Obamacare isn't going to determine what my insurance company does. Their bottom line will.

There have been lots of discussions about HMOs, PPOs, fee for service vice managed care and before Obama Kare it was clear to me that an individual was better off going to a doctor and having the doctor be your advocate with your payer than going to a HMO type organization where the bottom line is better served by withholding expensive service. Your Doctor is best served by giving you the best needed care possible. Obama Kare would change that and it will not be nearly so clear with the extra layer of "death panels" or what ever you want to call the rationing bureaucracy who will ration your care. I hope it does not come to that and enough States opt out, Congress defunds ACA (ObamaKare) and Romney replaces obama.

Only problem with that idea is that we are stuck with Romney. Scarey idea. What will he actually be thinking tomorrow? Actually, nm, can't figure out what BA will do either since progressives are rather gutless these days but I'm not sure that the MIttster will do anything to reduce health care costs either. Not a good idea for people above profits in this discussion.

[Deja Vu U Monty]

Jul 24, 2012 16:19:07 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

Jul 24, 2012 15:56:01 GMT -8 aztecwin said:

There have been lots of discussions about HMOs, PPOs, fee for service vice managed care and before Obama Kare it was clear to me that an individual was better off going to a doctor and having the doctor be your advocate with your payer than going to a HMO type organization where the bottom line is better served by withholding expensive service. Your Doctor is best served by giving you the best needed care possible. Obama Kare would change that and it will not be nearly so clear with the extra layer of "death panels" or what ever you want to call the rationing bureaucracy who will ration your care. I hope it does not come to that and enough States opt out, Congress defunds ACA (ObamaKare) and Romney replaces obama.

What do you mean when you say "having the doctor be your advocate with your payer"?

Tough for anyone who hasn't experienced an HMO to share experiences so not sure you will get an answer there. When I was still in San Diego I had Kaiser and was apparently lucky. They seemed to have no problem spending money doing tests on me. Other people had different experiences with them. Here I had Health Plan of Nevada. A great doctor in fact. But he could not "advocate" for me about getting Lipotor versus Zocor. Lipotor flat out worked for me but was on the higher level drug level so they would not prescribe it even though he tried twice to get them to do so. Zocor worked on me about as well as a Tic Tac or a Mento would for cholesterol control but that is all they would prescribe. Had to use their choice of pharmacies so I guess they only made a zillion dollars off that instead of a gazillion.

P.S. I had bypass surgery 8 years ago thanks to the wonderful results of the cheaper meds. Thank you insurance companies.

[JOCAZTEC]

The layoffs have started across OC now. These 21 new taxes that the government WILL expand upon and tax everyone in the near future, and the President Bush "tax cuts" elimination, has brought on a huge wave on layoffs, top to bottom. Not one person I talk to about this is hiring, or holding, just downsizing as fast as possible.

Thank you chain smoker prezident and you democRats. Thank you!

HAM Tax/TH PL

[JOCAZTEC]

Jul 24, 2012 13:48:32 GMT -8 AlwaysAnAztec said:

Jul 24, 2012 13:39:06 GMT -8 JOCAZTEC said:

And the HMOs and PPOs were the product of your government passing laws in and around 1978 that made is SO easy to sue your doctors. The passage of these laws was like Eve biting the apple, and the medical industry went dark.

Pass tort reform and let the Doctors doctor and you won't need any government help.

Just ask the Doctors, not the democRats...

HAM Tax/TH PL

We've already discussed "tort reform" ad nauseum. Try discussing an issue instead of spouting RepubliCant talking points.

You misspelled a word. I'll keep "talking" about tort reform up until the time they remove those laws that made it so easy to sue your doctor on a whim. These were the laws that killed the medical industry. Tort reform would take one page to do.

...waiting...

HAM Tax/TH PL

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Jul 25, 2012 7:13:24 GMT -8 JOCAZTEC said:

Jul 24, 2012 13:48:32 GMT -8 AlwaysAnAztec said:

We've already discussed "tort reform" ad nauseum. Try discussing an issue instead of spouting RepubliCant talking points.

You misspelled a word. I'll keep "talking" about tort reform up until the time they remove those laws that made it so easy to sue your doctor on a whim. These were the laws that killed the medical industry. Tort reform would take one page to do.

...waiting...

HAM Tax/TH PL

Laws that "Allow" you to do something? I thought all of you RepubliCants were for free enterprise and no government regulations. But in this case you wish to government to limit.

Hypocrite.

[JOCAZTEC]

Tort reform. The laws passed in 1978 (approx.) made it so easy to sue your doctor that many quality doctors quit and the rest had to jump into HMOs, PPOs, HBOs etc. to continue and prevent lawsuits.

This Colorado leftist loon's shooting could have been prevented if the pyschiatrist was allowed to send him to a sanitarium. But, because of the 1978 laws that made it so easy to sue your doctor, the pysch doctor could not do this. Therefore all the loons can run free. The doctors can't doctor.

If you reform those laws and let a psych doctor send a whacko to a hospital, then you can prevent, probably most of these random shootings and stuff.

HAM Tax/TH PL

[aztecwin]

Jul 24, 2012 16:19:07 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

Jul 24, 2012 15:56:01 GMT -8 aztecwin said:

There have been lots of discussions about HMOs, PPOs, fee for service vice managed care and before Obama Kare it was clear to me that an individual was better off going to a doctor and having the doctor be your advocate with your payer than going to a HMO type organization where the bottom line is better served by withholding expensive service. Your Doctor is best served by giving you the best needed care possible. Obama Kare would change that and it will not be nearly so clear with the extra layer of "death panels" or what ever you want to call the rationing bureaucracy who will ration your care. I hope it does not come to that and enough States opt out, Congress defunds ACA (ObamaKare) and Romney replaces obama.

What do you mean when you say "having the doctor be your advocate with your payer"?

Should be perfectly clear. It is in both your best interest and the interest of your Doctor to give you the most thorough care possible to maintain your health. You live longer and healthier and your Doctor gets paid more. Your Doctor (his staff) knows the ropes with the insurance companies and how to justify the best care possible for you.

[aztec70]

Jul 25, 2012 11:36:54 GMT -8 aztecwin said:

Jul 24, 2012 16:19:07 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

What do you mean when you say "having the doctor be your advocate with your payer"?

Should be perfectly clear. It is in both your best interest and the interest of your Doctor to give you the most thorough care possible to maintain your health. You live longer and healthier and your Doctor gets paid more. Your Doctor (his staff) knows the ropes with the insurance companies and how to justify the best care possible for you.

If you had said your health insurance company, rather than "payer", your point would have been clear.

[JOCAZTEC]

Psychiatrists are no longer, after 1978, allowed to evaluate and place a person into a mental institution. If they do, they get sued by the person. The colorado shooter was evaluated by a doctor and had the Feds never passed those laws back, around 1978 that made it so easy to sue your doctor on a whim, then this colorado maniac would not have been in public but savely placed in an institution to prevent him from hurting other people.

Let the Doctors doctor.

HAM Tax/TH PL DL

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Jul 26, 2012 8:44:11 GMT -8 JOCAZTEC said:

Psychiatrists are no longer, after 1978, allowed to evaluate and place a person into a mental institution. If they do, they get sued by the person. The colorado shooter was evaluated by a doctor and had the Feds never passed those laws back, around 1978 that made it so easy to sue your doctor on a whim, then this colorado maniac would not have been in public but savely placed in an institution to prevent him from hurting other people.

Let the Doctors doctor.

HAM Tax/TH PL DL

Link?

[JOCAZTEC]

Sausage.

HAM Tax

[tuff]

A lot of seniors will die because some pinheads in DC will determine if the quality of life will justify the cost of the health care. Euthanasia here we come.

[aztecwin]

Jul 24, 2012 17:22:21 GMT -8 Deja Vu U Monty said:

Jul 24, 2012 16:19:07 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

What do you mean when you say "having the doctor be your advocate with your payer"?

Tough for anyone who hasn't experienced an HMO to share experiences so not sure you will get an answer there. When I was still in San Diego I had Kaiser and was apparently lucky. They seemed to have no problem spending money doing tests on me. Other people had different experiences with them. Here I had Health Plan of Nevada. A great doctor in fact. But he could not "advocate" for me about getting Lipotor versus Zocor. Lipotor flat out worked for me but was on the higher level drug level so they would not prescribe it even though he tried twice to get them to do so. Zocor worked on me about as well as a Tic Tac or a Mento would for cholesterol control but that is all they would prescribe. Had to use their choice of pharmacies so I guess they only made a zillion dollars off that instead of a gazillion.

P.S. I had bypass surgery 8 years ago thanks to the wonderful results of the cheaper meds. Thank you insurance companies.

My Doctors both in Washington and here in California have had no problem getting both my wife and I what ever medicine. We pay more for some meds, but still can get it. My Doctor in Washington even gave me free samples of blood pressure and cholesterol medicines until he found what would work on me and then gave me prescriptions for those meds. I think you just had some bad luck or should have been more assertive with your Doctor.

[JOCAZTEC]

Jul 28, 2012 10:06:38 GMT -8 tuff said:

A lot of seniors will die because some pinheads in DC will determine if the quality of life will justify the cost of the health care. Euthanasia here we come.

Let's try it.

Hmm. The link on line to "www.mygovernmenthealthcareproviderpersonpayeroffreemedical.gov.org.bho.com".

Okay, it's loading now. Wait a second.

Waiting. It's 25 percent loaded. Wait for it.

Okay.

Here it comes.

Almost.

Oh, look at the big smilely face of Bar. Huss. Osama, the prezident! The title says, "Forward". Okay so wait for it to load. Done. There now click on the the "x" and see if his ugly face can be minimized.

There. I'm on the site. Now let's see the first pull down tab says, "Home" the next, "FAQs", then "Forms", then, "Publications" then, let's look a bit farther...

There. The tab says, "Current medical conditions". Click on it. Wait, it's loading. Wait, oh no here comes that ugly face picture pop-up. Click the "x". Minimized. Still loading. Okay. Done.

New tabs. First one says, "Home". No. Next, "FAQs" No. Let's skip down a bit. It seems we have the same tabs from the previous menu. Oh there it is, "Urgent and Current Medical Conditions". Click on it.

Okay. It's loading, and, here comes osama's face again, click on the "x" before it loads, Okay. The next menu is almost loaded. Done.

Next set of tabs, the first one says, of course, "Home". Let's look down further, again. Oh, yeah here is the one, "Urgent and Immediate Medical Conditions." Click on it.

Wait.

Wait.

What no more osama picture? Good. He must be out on a smoking break.

Okay here it comes. Loaded, done.

Let's see the new tabs. Yep, go past the "Home" tab down to, yep that one. It says, "Urgent and Immediate, Current Medical Conditions Described". Click on it.

Okay. It's loading. Done.

Fill in your name, address, phone, date of birth, mothers' maiden names (how can I have more than one?), height, age (they can subtract?), political affiliate, race, gender, sex preference, smoker (but it states, "optional"?), previous addresses covering the past 20 years, and then medical history.

Okay. This will take about an hour to fill out. I'll fill it out later and click the "I agree under penalty of perjury, and be subjected to fines, imprisonment, torture (as if filling out this governmental website isn't torture...) etc."

Click.

And, cool, the whole page is laid out in green. Let's see, the new menu tabs lists body areas. Okay, find the central core...um, yep there it is, "Heart, Arteries, and Blood Flows". Click on it.

Wow. Now the screen is laid out in red script and colorings.

Next, let see the tab titles. The first tab, huh, who would have guessed it, "Home". Looking down further, the 15th tab has the word, "Failure" on it. Hmm. What's that? Try it. Click on it.

It's loading. Wait for it.

There, it is flashing red and yellow words. The fouth tab says, "current failure". Click on it. There it is. Wait for it. Here it comes.

Waiting.

Almost loaded.

There. Look down, find the tab, "Urgent and current failure". Click on it. Okay, it's loading. Waiting. And, done.

Hmm. Strange. The whole page has gone to white with black, size 4 fonts and it is hard to read. View button, increase and wha-law! Question number one. "Are you currently suffering, experiencing, sensing, or believing that you are suffering any type of heart, arterial, or blood flow failures? Click on yes or no."

Clicked yes. And here comes a new screen.

"Please check one of the following. 1. heart, 2. arterial, 3. blood flow."

Clicked one.

New screen.

"Please click on the section of the heart that you are urgently and immediately, currently experiencing, sensing, believing that is medically failing."

Let me think. Um. Geez. Well, I'll have to guess. I'll click on number five, "lower aorta".

There. New screen loading. Uh-oh. "Due to new governmental regulations this page has be re-assigned for medical maintainance--please click on the Home tab to proceed."

?

Quick hit he back browser button to the previous menu screen and select a different part of the heart. No. It just kicked me out entirely.

Well, now what?

I guess the next time you start having a heat attack you'd better just not go onto the government osamacare website for your free healthcare...

HAM Tax/TH PL DL